Grunge Clear-Up

CheezerRoxCheezerRox Road Warrior
edited March 2009 in History of Rock
Okay, as many of you MAY now, I am a HUGE grunge fan. From NIRVANA and Alice in Chains to Mudhoney and the Melvins, it's all great. Unfortunately, grunge is constantly being mocked and/or misunderstood, and I thougt I might as well clear some stuff up for people who may not already know.

Grunge is a mixture of alternative rock, metal, and punk/hardcore punk.

Nevermind by NIRVANA, Ten by Pearl Jam, Superunknown by Soundgarden, Core by STP, Above by Mad Season, Apple and Shine (and anything else) by Mother Love Bone, and the like ARE NOT GRUNGE RECORDS!!! MOST ARE CORPORATE ALTERNATIVE ROCK RECORDS!!! OTHERS ARE OVER-PRODUCED HARD ROCK RECORDS, ET CETERA!!!!!

If Nevermind and Ten defined grunge, I wouldn't like it.

In Utero by NIRVANA, Vitalogy by Pearl Jam, anything by Alice in Chains (although it's closer to just plain metal),Rubberneck by the Toadies, Superfuzz Bigmuff by Mudhoney, Gluey Porch Treatments by The Melvins (although more metal, usually), the like ARE GRUNGE RECORDS!!!!!



Now, moving on to more recently, just because a genre has grunge in it doesn't mean it IS grunge. That's right people, I'm talking about post-grunge, that poppy alternative/hard rock we all hate. Okay, so the bands labeled as such listened to Nevermind, DOESN'T MEAN THEY'RE GRUNGE. Post-grunge is the red-headed step-child of grunge that was never meant to be, and never should have been. Nickelback and Staind and Godsmack and Everclear and others are all CORPORATE ROCK BANDS. That's not grunge.

Anyway, I could go on some more, but then i'd just ramble. That's the basics. Please, if not understood already, understand your early 90s alternative rock, my friend.

Comments

  • benson111benson111 Eater of Fine Cupcakes
    edited March 2009
    Thanks for clearing this up. I wouldnt know what to like from this "Genre?".

    Alt.
  • GowienczykGowienczyk Pooper of Parties
    edited March 2009
    A bit abrasive and sloppy definition there, OP. But you are trying.
  • LolicatLolicat Road Warrior
    edited March 2009
    Could you not have made the point in a more concise and clear manner without resorting to repitition and caps lock? I mean, I'm pretty sure most people in this forum 'got' your point already, without the pedantary of your post.
  • CheezerRoxCheezerRox Road Warrior
    edited March 2009
    benson111;2048634 said:
    Thanks for clearing this up. I wouldnt know what to like from this "Genre?".

    Alt.
    Everyone has their own musical tastes.
    Gowienczyk;2048648 said:
    A bit abrasive and sloppy definition there, OP. But you are trying.
    Well, thanks. :D I'm no column writer or poet, but I'm glad I can at least get my point across.
    Lolicat;2048660 said:
    Could you not have made the point in a more concise and clear manner without resorting to repitition and caps lock? I mean, I'm pretty sure most people in this forum 'got' your point already, without the pedantary of your post.
    Oh well, "this forum" will get over it. I mean, not to sound like a douche, but, as I stated before, I'm no writer. I just wanted to get something out there. Sorry if you think it was terrible, but then again, no one made you read it...
  • benson111benson111 Eater of Fine Cupcakes
    edited March 2009
    CheezerRox;2048720 said:
    Everyone has their own musical tastes.

    I am a fan of everything you listed. I just don't think it needs a definition.
    Any more genres are too subjective, and un-necessary for me.
    "Music" By definition, is "Music". If that makes sense. :confused:
  • CheezerRoxCheezerRox Road Warrior
    edited March 2009
    benson111;2048732 said:
    I am a fan of everything you listed. I just don't think it needs a definition.
    Any more genres are too subjective, and un-necessary for me.
    "Music" By definition, is "Music". If that makes sense. :confused:
    Yeah, to be honest, I totally agree with you. But having an iPod and music on my computer makes me go all OCD on this genre thing because I like to be accurate. Plus, (musically) ignorant people annoy the **** out of me. :D By that, I mean today's youth and what-not.
  • WhiffleBallTonyWhiffleBallTony Headliner
    edited March 2009
    benson111;2048732 said:
    I am a fan of everything you listed. I just don't think it needs a definition.
    Any more genres are too subjective, and un-necessary for me.
    "Music" By definition, is "Music". If that makes sense. :confused:
    The only definition of music that I've actually found that works is "sound in time". It's from a ****ty teaching company DVD that supposedly explored music. It was quite possibly the worst excuse for a course I've ever seen, but that was the one thing that gave me some respect for the guy doing it.
  • CheezerRoxCheezerRox Road Warrior
    edited March 2009
    WhiffleBallTony;2048747 said:
    The only definition of music that I've actually found that works is "sound in time". It's from a ****ty teaching company DVD that supposedly explored music. It was quite possibly the worst excuse for a course I've ever seen, but that was the one thing that gave me some respect for the guy doing it.
    That's basically what music is. I mean, just listen to some NIN or something and you'll know. XD
  • benson111benson111 Eater of Fine Cupcakes
    edited March 2009
    CheezerRox;2048741 said:
    Yeah, to be honest, I totally agree with you. But having an iPod and music on my computer makes me go all OCD on this genre thing because I like to be accurate. Plus, (musically) ignorant people annoy the **** out of me. :D By that, I mean today's youth and what-not.
    I find musically disinclined people a challenge, more than an annoyance. I feel the need to educate them and move on. That way they can look back and say..."Hey that guy was right ", that way instead of coming off like an "Asshat", or sounding pretentious, i can show them music that they may like in a genre, or "Feel" of music they may actually like.

    Just me.
  • Onslaught_feiOnslaught_fei Headliner
    edited March 2009
    Ill be the devil's advocate here. Unfortunately your exact and scholarly narrow definition of grunge will never make any kind of dent in common music definition usage nor will even come close to reflecting 90% of the population's definition and usage of the term grunge. Let something that is twice as old and much more broad like metal be a testament to an impossibly uphill battle of having cast-in-stone strict and sharp musical genre definitons that are agreed to by all.
  • warthogdbwarthogdb Opening Act
    edited March 2009
    I think that grunge is just a pop culture term coined for the fashion and music industries to have something to sell. Metal guys trip all over themselves to make sure people know how metal they. Guys will go to great lengths to earn the punk label. To my knowledge nobody ever really called themselves grunge. The big four Seattle bands that most people think of as grunge don't even sound like they are in the same genre to my ears. I always found the term to be unnecessary.
  • Onslaught_feiOnslaught_fei Headliner
    edited March 2009
    warthogdb;2049985 said:
    I think that grunge is just a pop culture term coined for the fashion and music industries to have something to sell.
    Uh, considering mainstays of grunge fashion were torn clothes, flannel, and not washing your stuff I think you're so wrong its ridiculous. It was the backlash too hair, glam, sleeze (whatever) metal. The whole idea that "were not pretty" and "dont care about what we wear" and the generation of divorced parents, depression, and cynism. Also the term grunge was coined by the leadvocalist of Mudhoney.
  • warthogdbwarthogdb Opening Act
    edited March 2009
    Onslaught_fei;2049994 said:
    Uh, considering mainstays of grunge fashion were torn clothes, flannel, and not washing your stuff I think you're so wrong its ridiculous. It was the backlash too hair, glam, sleeze (whatever) metal. The whole idea that "were not pretty" and "dont care about what we wear" and the generation of divorced parents, depression, and cynism.
    Uh, you got a pretty short memory bro if you were even around then. Did you google grunge fashion before you attacked me? Corporate America was all over the movement as soon as they realized that it would sell. They had flannel on fashion runways in Paris for pete's sake. The word was on the cover of every fashion magazine. I'm not saying it makes sense but it is what happened. Do you think millions of kids went to the thrift store to by their Pearl Jam clothes? No. They went to the mall to by pre-worn flannel and jackets that some kid in a sweat shop in tawain carefully tore before shipping.

    Grunge was no grass roots movement either. The scene existed in one region for years and only blew up when Nirvana came out on Geffen. Ten was on Sony. Alice in Chains was all over MTV. Backlashes, cynicism and anti-fashion sells just as well as glam and excess. In the early 90s it made a lot of people a lot of money.
  • Onslaught_feiOnslaught_fei Headliner
    edited March 2009
    warthogdb;2050084 said:
    Uh, you got a pretty short memory bro if you were even around then. Did you google grunge fashion before you attacked me? Corporate America was all over the movement as soon as they realized that it would sell. They had flannel on fashion runways in Paris for pete's sake. The word was on the cover of every fashion magazine. I'm not saying it makes sense but it is what happened. Do you think millions of kids went to the thrift store to by their Pearl Jam clothes? No. They went to the mall to by pre-worn flannel and jackets that some kid in a sweat shop in tawain carefully tore before shipping.

    Grunge was no grass roots movement either. The scene existed in one region for years and only blew up when Nirvana came out on Geffen. Ten was on Sony. Alice in Chains was all over MTV. Backlashes, cynicism and anti-fashion sells just as well as glam and excess. In the early 90s it made a lot of people a lot of money.
    Grunge was not coined by "corporate america" was not planned, but was taken advantage of. The term grunge was originally used by the bands and original grunge record label (sub pop) themself. Nevermind was not expected by anyone. Not by Nirvana, not by Geffen, not by MTV. No punkesque band, no alternative band, nothing non-stadium rock at the time even came close to how the music video and album took the Seattle scene and spread it like a blanket over America and into the UK. It completely redefined the music industry for rock at the time, killing stadium metal out of the mainstream and putting alternative rock radio to the forefront of every kid in high school's (myself included) listening ears.

    Grunge also only lasted about 5 years in the rock limelight. You can say a lot of people profitted from it but fashion is fashion. Fashion companies did not invent grunge (and nor did corporate America) like you implicity imply but merely rode it after the fact as a response to profit on something. What created grunge was Sub Pop's (an indie label) attempts to get similiar bands on a similiar page. The bands themselves did not want to be famous or successful. (Again, no one expected it to turn out how it did) Almost all of them broke up, had suicides, or boycotted major companies.

    Fashion companies and "corporate America" did not make Soundgarden, Mudhoney, The Melvins, Alice in Chains, Nirvana, etc...
  • chrkchrk Unsigned
    edited March 2009
    i heard dave grohl, scientifically proven to be the only talent to come out of grunge, talked kurt "i'm so sad" cobain into killing himself just so he could fasttrack his way out of nirvana and start playing music with other real musicians.

    lolgrunge
  • warthogdbwarthogdb Opening Act
    edited March 2009
    Onslaught_fei;2050099 said:
    Grunge was not coined by "corporate america" was not planned, but was taken advantage of. The term grunge was originally used by the bands and original grunge record label (sub pop) themself. Nevermind was not expected by anyone. Not by Nirvana, not by Geffen, not by MTV. No punkesque band, no alternative band, nothing non-stadium rock at the time even came close to how the music video and album took the Seattle scene and spread it like a blanket over America and into the UK. It completely redefined the music industry for rock at the time, killing stadium metal out of the mainstream and putting alternative rock radio to the forefront of every kid in high school's (myself included) listening ears.

    Grunge also only lasted about 5 years in the rock limelight. You can say a lot of people profitted from it but fashion is fashion. Fashion companies did not invent grunge (and nor did corporate America) like you implicity imply but merely rode it after the fact as a response to profit on something. What created grunge was Sub Pop's (an indie label) attempts to get similiar bands on a similiar page. The bands themselves did not want to be famous or successful. (Again, no one expected it to turn out how it did) Almost all of them broke up, had suicides, or boycotted major companies.

    Fashion companies and "corporate America" did not make Soundgarden, Mudhoney, The Melvins, Alice in Chains, Nirvana, etc...
    I think that the term became a convenient term to use a catchphrase to sell and it doesn't sound like you disagree with me. My point was that it became such a nebulous generic pop culture term that it has no real meaning musically.

    The sad fact is that the actual grunge bands of which you speak did not have the cultural impact. They didn't get famous. They remained on the fringe. The ones that did make it did so by leaving the scene to go with major labels. i.e. Pearl Jam, AIC, Nirvana, Soundgarden.

    I don't think any of those bands were intent on spreading "grunge" to the masses. I contrasted that with metal and punk bands who wear their labels with pride. Have you ever heard these bands call themselves grunge?

    I'm a punk guy at heart. I appreciate the fact that the 90s alternative scene killed off the guitar school wankers and diluted hair metal scene. I never intended to lesson the impact of the music. I just always thought the term grunge was forced onto different sounding bands who happened to be from the same place.
  • Onslaught_feiOnslaught_fei Headliner
    edited March 2009
    One of subpop's first bands and first singles they produced and distributed was by Nirvana, setting them us a popular local act by mailing CDs out to subscribers. (Geffen themselves were originally an independently operated record label.) Other mainstay grunge acts that were originally a part of Sub Pop were L7, Hole, and Soundgarden. Pearl Jam is a valid "cash-in" excuse but the bands behavior would prove otherwise.

    But as far as the Grunge genre having no musical meaning (characteristiclly in a strictly musical way) I agree with you to some extent, as this actually happens to all subgenres of music. Application of what you said about grunge's musical charcteristics are equally appliable to "alternative rock", "heavy metal", or "punk rock". What grunge is guilty of, and this happens to a lot of genres, is that it was a musical movement. Look at other musical movements or (trends, genres, whatever you wanna call them) like New Wave, Krautrock, Numetal, NWOBHM, or Britpop.

    There is a certain mindset that a genre of music is set defined and anyone regardless of location and time can be typecast into a certain standard. Genres are journalistic in nature, bands (such a grunge) go out and create music while drawing on inspiration from their audience, other bands and influences and create a common link. I think grunge suits the bands well, as does Kurt Cobain on the term grunge in this interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TwOBGZ3ggk
  • warthogdbwarthogdb Opening Act
    edited March 2009
    Onslaught_fei;2050169 said:
    One of subpop's first bands and first singles they produced and distributed was by Nirvana, setting them us a popular local act by mailing CDs out to subscribers. (Geffen themselves were originally an independently operated record label.) Other mainstay grunge acts that were originally a part of Sub Pop were L7, Hole, and Soundgarden. Pearl Jam is a valid "cash-in" excuse but the bands behavior would prove otherwise.

    But as far as the Grunge genre having no musical meaning (characteristiclly in a strictly musical way) I agree with you to some extent, as this actually happens to all subgenres of music. Application of what you said about grunge's musical charcteristics are equally appliable to "alternative rock", "heavy metal", or "punk rock". What grunge is guilty of, and this happens to a lot of genres, is that it was a musical movement. Look at other musical movements or (trends, genres, whatever you wanna call them) like New Wave, Krautrock, Numetal, NWOBHM, or Britpop.

    There is a certain mindset that a genre of music is set defined and anyone regardless of location and time can be typecast into a certain standard. Genres are journalistic in nature, bands (such a grunge) go out and create music while drawing on inspiration from their audience, other bands and influences and create a common link. I think grunge suits the bands well, as does Kurt Cobain on the term grunge in this interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TwOBGZ3ggk
    I think that he is basically saying what I was saying. There had to be a term to sell. It also sounds like he running from the term a little bit and then kind of embracing it. I never liked the term "alternative" either because it is too broad and almost pretentious. I do think that there is more of a self awareness in the metal, at least when I was a kid, and punk scenes. Even Cobain found it more comfortable to affiliate with punk rock. As generations pass it is obviously more and more fragmented.

    I guess there has to be a term for it. It doesn't matter what I think. Everyone calls it grunge. I have satellite radio and have the 90s station as a preset. There is a very specific sound that is just as identifiable to that decade as there is for the 80s.

    On a different note, I went and looked at the top 100 albums of the 90s and I had totally forgotten how popular country became. I can't help but wonder if all the rednecks that were listening to Poison and Warrant weren't driven back to country when grunge killed hair metal. That is my new theory. Nirvana killed hair metal and paved the way for Garth Brooks.
  • Onslaught_feiOnslaught_fei Headliner
    edited March 2009
    I do not like the term alternative rock as a genre either. To me alternative rock is a radio format (like classic rock or oldies) and not a genre in of itself (Pixies fans will disagree with me). But the term is more broad than broad itself.

    As for country music its always been stupidly popular and by redneck you must mean teenage girl, as they historically have contributed to the success of pretty boys.
  • LolicatLolicat Road Warrior
    edited March 2009
    Onslaught_fei;2050203 said:
    I do not like the term alternative rock as a genre either. To me alternative rock is a radio format (like classic rock or oldies) and not a genre in of itself (Pixies fans will disagree with me). But the term is more broad than broad itself.

    As for country music its always been stupidly popular and by redneck you must mean teenage girl, as they historically have contributed to the success of pretty boys.
    Alternative rock is a genre, but grunge is not a part of alt. rock. Then again, I am a Pixies fan. I'm totally on your side for everything else however, grunge may have been co-opted by the Dark Forces of Big Capitalism, but it was a scene of its own that existed long before the pollutant of MTV.
  • warthogdbwarthogdb Opening Act
    edited March 2009
    Onslaught_fei;2050203 said:

    As for country music its always been stupidly popular and by redneck you must mean teenage girl, as they historically have contributed to the success of pretty boys.
    That is why something needed to overthrow hair metal. It went from being rebellious disenfranchised youth music to parents taking their 13 year old daughters to Bon Jovi concerts. That coupled with the infusion of the shredders who played music to show off their technical skill. It's death was inevitable. Grunge made kids feel like more a part of the scene when it simplified the fashion and the music.

    There have been similar times in history. Take the sixties. After exciting simple blues music evolved into rock operas and Sgt Peppers, the garage band movement gained momentum. In the 70s when rock turned into stadiums and self indulgent twenty minute solos, punk rock was born. Coming out of the 90s when grunge and punk had evolved into pretty boys playing commercially slick alternative music that teenage girls liked, there was another garage movement.

    As for my half joking statement about Garth Brooks, his style of country propelled the genre to heights it had never achieved before and I think that hair metal's death was necessary for this to take place. I think there is evidence found in Bon Jovi and Brett Michaels pandering to the country crowds in recent years. So, in a way, Nirvana cleared the path for commercial country.
  • Highlandlassie1Highlandlassie1 Road Warrior
    edited March 2009
    All of this is in your not-so-humble opinion.

    Give me what you would probably call "Post-Grunge" any day over any grunge music.

    I call it Rock and Roll.

    "Post-Grunge" as you call it is an attempt, and in some cases a good one, to give us music that is most like rock and roll from days past, but with better production and new riffs.

    Grunge killed real rock and roll, "Post-Grunge" is trying (and succeeding with me), to bring it back to life.

    Of course at 46 years of age, I suppose that my views will be radically different than most on this youth-ruled forum.
  • My name is FezMy name is Fez Road Warrior
    edited March 2009
    Gowienczyk;2048648 said:
    A bit abrasive and sloppy definition there, OP. But you are trying.
    QFT.
    Lolicat said:
    Could you not have made the point in a more concise and clear manner without resorting to repitition and caps lock? I mean, I'm pretty sure most people in this forum 'got' your point already, without the pedantary of your post.
    Also QFT.
  • MronoCMronoC Road Warrior
    edited March 2009
    Highlandlassie1;2051235 said:
    All of this is in your not-so-humble opinion.

    Give me what you would probably call "Post-Grunge" any day over any grunge music.

    I call it Rock and Roll.

    "Post-Grunge" as you call it is an attempt, and in some cases a good one, to give us music that is most like rock and roll from days past, but with better production and new riffs.

    Grunge killed real rock and roll, "Post-Grunge" is trying (and succeeding with me), to bring it back to life.

    Of course at 46 years of age, I suppose that my views will be radically different than most on this youth-ruled forum.
    Age isn't a factor, post-grunge is just bad.

    my apinyun is grater then urs (:p)
  • Alright_ComputerAlright_Computer Butt Neck
    edited March 2009
    Highlandlassie1;2051235 said:
    All of this is in your not-so-humble opinion.

    Give me what you would probably call "Post-Grunge" any day over any grunge music.

    I call it Rock and Roll.

    "Post-Grunge" as you call it is an attempt, and in some cases a good one, to give us music that is most like rock and roll from days past, but with better production and new riffs.

    Grunge killed real rock and roll, "Post-Grunge" is trying (and succeeding with me), to bring it back to life.

    Of course at 46 years of age, I suppose that my views will be radically different than most on this youth-ruled forum.
    If post-grunge is bringing rock and roll back to life, then we should put it out of its misery before I hear another Nickelback song.

    (IMO of course)
  • HeyRilesHeyRiles Besse's Girl
    edited March 2009
    Wait, so I actually dislike alternative rock, metal, and punk/hardcore punk?

    Well shoot, guess I gotta stop liking Muse, Judas Priest, Senses Fail, Arctic Monkeys, MGMT, The Ramones, Megadeth, Snow Patrol, Radiohead, Franz Ferdinand, and basically every other band I've ever liked.

    Looks like the only band I actually like is Toadies. Thanks for clearing that up
  • DookieManDookieMan Road Warrior
    edited March 2009
    I'm a bit confused by some of the points you make here, but I am also annoyed when Creed is thought of as "the" grunge band. I love grunge, but I absolutely despise post-grunge.
  • CheezerRoxCheezerRox Road Warrior
    edited March 2009
    benson111;2048774 said:
    I find musically disinclined people a challenge, more than an annoyance. I feel the need to educate them and move on. That way they can look back and say..."Hey that guy was right ", that way instead of coming off like an "Asshat", or sounding pretentious, i can show them music that they may like in a genre, or "Feel" of music they may actually like.

    Just me.
    That's true. I don't know, I'm no wise man, I'm no calculative thinker, it's just that false opinions of grunge and the love of post-grunge has always annoyed me and I just thought I might as well get my opinion out there. Honestly, I do agree with the people who think it was abrasive and sloppy, but I guess I just kinda hope that that won't completely cut off what I was trying to get across.
    chrk;2050111 said:
    i heard dave grohl, scientifically proven to be the only talent to come out of grunge, talked kurt "i'm so sad" cobain into killing himself just so he could fasttrack his way out of nirvana and start playing music with other real musicians.

    lolgrunge
    You have to be one of the most ignorant people I've ever had the displeasure of "seeing".

    Jerry Cantrell, Mike McCready, Stone Gossard, Eddie Vedder, Layne Staley, Buzz Osbourne, Steve Turner, Chris Cornell, and, yes, even Kurt Cobain would all like to have a word with you.
    Alright_Computer;2052329 said:
    If post-grunge is bringing rock and roll back to life, then we should put it out of its misery before I hear another Nickelback song.

    (IMO of course)
    QFT.

    (Also IMO.)
    HeyRiles;2052361 said:
    Wait, so I actually dislike alternative rock, metal, and punk/hardcore punk?

    Well shoot, guess I gotta stop liking Muse, Judas Priest, Senses Fail, Arctic Monkeys, MGMT, The Ramones, Megadeth, Snow Patrol, Radiohead, Franz Ferdinand, and basically every other band I've ever liked.

    Looks like the only band I actually like is Toadies. Thanks for clearing that up
    Never said that. I guess you mean you hate grunge, but that doesn't mean you hate where it came from. That's like if I said I don't like (insert genre) that I don't like anything that made it. That's ridiculous.
  • CheezerRoxCheezerRox Road Warrior
    edited March 2009
    If people are gonna be so pissy and this thread really bothers them that much, I'll ask a mod to close it, because I really don't want to hear it, honestly. Okay, I get it, I could have worded it better. Okay, I get it, you don't like grunge. Okay, I get it, Kurt Cobain committed suicide. Get over it. No one asked you to come to this thread, and no one asked you to be a aggressive about it.

    By the way, this obviously isn't pointed at everyone who has posted in this thread, but I'm not going to name names or **** like that.
  • eagles1990eagles1990 Unsigned
    edited March 2009
    What? Superunknown not a Grunge album? 4th of July is the definition of grunge.I agree with you 100% about Post-Grunge. Nickleback and grunge shouldn't even be in the same sentence.

    I'm a huge grunge fan myself
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