All Event and "Bar Night" Organizers Only!!

YRDaddyYRDaddy Road Warrior
edited August 2013 in Rock Band Events
I thought I would create a thread where dedicated Event and "Bar Night" organizers from all over can discuss and bounce ideas off of eachother. I figured it would help current organizers as well as new comers who pop up and ask questions once and a while.

I run a company in Denver, CO called Death of the Arcade Entertainment. We specialize in hosting "Rock Band Nights" as a trendy and new karaoke alternative. I started in 6/08 and business has been pretty steady. We have one of the most unique stage set ups I've seen so far and have helped to create a dedicated community of video game rockers here in Colorado. I have bounced around from "Hole in the Wall" bars to reputable places like Old Chicago's and C & B and Potts (unfortunately Hard Rock Cafe could not afford a Rock Band Night after months of talks and negotiations but they are still very interest ;)). I am currently booked at 2 weekly locations and I handle a private party or Video Game Contest (I handle the Rock Band set up and judging for the Colorado Cutthroat Conection) about once a month. For more info on my company and what we do visit: www.myspace.com/deathofthearcade

Anyways, as I said, I thought we could bounce ideas of eachother regarding things like:

Set Up Ideas
Venue Ideas
Compensation (Pay)
Maybe even National Organization and Contests
Anything else that might be on our minds...

So if your an event organizer, chime in and mention a little something about yourself. Maybe ask a question or 2 or give some advice to someone who is thinking about starting a Rock Band Night.

Later! :D

Comments

  • KlubbyKlubby Unsigned
    edited March 2009
    That's certainly possible Zoo, but unfortunately, a risk I'm willing to take.

    If you are going to buy an Xbox new, the risk of the RROD is much less now than it was before due to the new hardware being installed... but still a risk.

    I prefer the Xbox but that's only because I'm already used to RB on that console. We went ahead and purchased 2 Elites with one having all of the songs downloaded (for now). Obviously with one gamertag being the license holder, if we were to have a RROD situation, we'd be screwed and only able to play the songs off the disc - but at least there's a back-up "plan" for now.

    Once we have the funds, we will have another gamertag set-up on the other console as the "owner" of the licenses to the DLC.

    This is all in the hopes that we expand and have several teams out in the field at once - in which case, we would need several more consoles. lol

    I honestly don't know what would happen if a PS3 were to brick. I guess it would be the same sort of deal - you would have to re-download all of the songs lost.
  • YRDaddyYRDaddy Road Warrior
    edited March 2009
    Zoologico;2148267 said:

    I would take your advice as far as the 360 is concerned, but are you not concerned about the RROD happening in the middle of an event?
    You could have a back up, but then that would require all songs to be downloaded and paid for all over again.

    Secondly, you would have to send your 360 in for weeks at a time to get it repaired.
    All very valid concerns and all have happened. Had a RRoD right at the start of a Rock Band Night. We played "acoustic" for a while to keep us entertained until a friend came in with his Xbox to get us through the night with just the on disk songs. Your best bet is to find a local Xbox repair guy (I call mine the xbox doctor). You can find them in computer repair shops and Craigslist. I have a launch day Elite so my warranty was up when I had problems. He fixed it in about 30 minutes and it cost me $30. Since then he has also replaced my disk drive motor and a second case of RRoD. The most recent RRoD, the "Doc" actualy made a "house call" and repaired my 360 on the pool table of Old Chicago during the Rock Band Night for $20!! I recently purchased the Red Sexy edition (Resident Evil 5) of the Xbox 360. I plan to transfer my Harddrive license over to it so I can start using the new Xbox and retire the old Elite. License transfers are pretty easy to do, but Microsoft will only let you do them once a year. Just keep a friend, or spare 360 handy to limp by for a night or 2 and you will be back to rockin in no time.
  • ssijayssijay Unsigned
    edited March 2009
  • LiquidKourageLiquidKourage Opening Act
    edited March 2009
    FWIW on the 360 vs. PS3 discussion, I opted to go the PS3 route. The reason is, I sometimes run multiple events on the same day. If I were to run with 360s, I would have to pay for DLC on each system separately. On PS3, each DLC purchase can be downloaded 5 times, across multiple systems.

    Now, I am aware that you can access DLC on a different 360 if you are signed onto Live with your Gamertag, but in a bar environment, you can't guarantee an internet connection to accomplish that. It's more reliable to have DLC onsite, so to speak.

    Consequently, I'm still curious if any of the other hosts here are interested in some sort of organization. If anyone wants to reach me offsite to discuss the idea, I can be reached here: LiquidKourageKaraoke (at) Gmail (dot) com.
  • ZoologicoZoologico Opening Act
    edited March 2009
    I'd be interested in this "trade group" idea.
    I don't have anything to contribute directly right now since I am basically in the research stage right now.

    For example, this weekend I plan on taking stock of the viable venues for this and visiting some more local ones in the Atlanta area. Also, I am going to visit one place 100% dedicated to this on Friday nights and seeing how they do it, in case I am missing any major considerations in my planned setup.

    I have actually already designed a set up a few weeks ago while I was bored. I was trying to figure out what the best set up is for band/audience placement as well as screen placement for the band.

    Right now, PS3 is looking like the best option. I am estimating that it will take about $2000 to get just the video game gear (peripherals, PS3, all Rock Band games, and all DLC). Then comes the projector (I have one that can be used exclusively for this) and screen which seems like the most practical solution for video display.

    My design actually incorporates at least two projectors and two screens. Tying into a video distribution system already in place would be ideal for additional screens beyond the two projectors.
  • YRDaddyYRDaddy Road Warrior
    edited March 2009
    ssijay;2150713 said:
    Hey all,

    Here is the link to the pics.

    http://www.rockband.com/forums/showthread.php?t=129962
    Looks like an awesome set up! Like I said, very well planned out for your 1st gig!
    LiquidKourage;2151012 said:
    FWIW on the 360 vs. PS3 discussion, I opted to go the PS3 route. The reason is, I sometimes run multiple events on the same day. If I were to run with 360s, I would have to pay for DLC on each system separately. On PS3, each DLC purchase can be downloaded 5 times, across multiple systems.

    Now, I am aware that you can access DLC on a different 360 if you are signed onto Live with your Gamertag, but in a bar environment, you can't guarantee an internet connection to accomplish that. It's more reliable to have DLC onsite, so to speak.

    Consequently, I'm still curious if any of the other hosts here are interested in some sort of organization. If anyone wants to reach me offsite to discuss the idea, I can be reached here: LiquidKourageKaraoke (at) Gmail (dot) com.
    Excellent point! I don't know much about the PS3 but I have heard about bieng able to "share" the DLC. For mutiple locations or fears of equipment repair, this sounds like an excellent choice. As I mentioned before I am very interested in the "organization", I'll be contacting you when I have some more free time.
    Zoologico;2151286 said:


    For example, this weekend I plan on taking stock of the viable venues for this and visiting some more local ones in the Atlanta area. Also, I am going to visit one place 100% dedicated to this on Friday nights and seeing how they do it, in case I am missing any major considerations in my planned setup.

    You know what? Venues seems like a good topic to discuss today. Some ideas for the new guys might be:

    Bars, Resturaunts, Private Parties, Corporate Events, County Fairs, Rec Center "Teen" Nights, Business "Grand Openings", Bowling Allys, Mini Golf Courses or Arcades / Go Cart Tracks, Independant Movie Theaters, A Gimiky Opening Act for a Real Local Band.

    Jump in any time experienced guys... :p

    I have found it particularly easy to aquire bars but getting that "family friendly" venue has eluded me for some reason! Has any of the experienced Rock Band hosts experienced this problem?
  • KlubbyKlubby Unsigned
    edited March 2009
    We have many street fairs here in Chicago as well as parades. We are planning renting out booths with our gear set-up for people to stop by and play as well as have a float in a parade or two. Great marketing!

    I am also interested in the "trade" group if someone wants to organize this.

    klubby (at) comcast (dot) net

    We haven't officially started as we are still waiting on some of the equipment as well as our state license, our name filing, etc. so I cannot comment on the family-friendly type gigs just yet...but will let you know if, when and how those arise.
  • LiquidKourageLiquidKourage Opening Act
    edited March 2009
    As far as venues are concerned, I've basically been exclusive to the bar/restaurant style venue. But, that mostly comes from my background as a karaoke DJ. I've hosted Rock Band nights at sports bars, Irish pubs, pizzerias, and even a bar designed exclusive around video games. I've also gotten into hosting competitions for charity nights and things of that nature.

    Basically, a "good" venue is one where your presence there will equate to a profit increase for the venue. Typically, bars are the ideal choice since your purpose is to encourage patrons to come and presumably spend their money. Of course, since a large part of the Rock Band demographic is under 21, finding an all-ages venue is something serious to consider; maybe bowling alleys, teen clubs ("juice bars"), pizza places, and restaurants. I'd stay away from national chains, since usually they have a policy about outside entertainment that comes from the corporate level (though franchisees sometimes have more latitude in that regard).

    Local fests might be a great way to promote your own brand, but you have to consider how "everyone" wins. You'll probably have to pay to secure a booth, and from there, what exactly are you promoting that will result in you making money? Being sponsored by a local business is a good way to get started there, even if it's not a venue (consider an electronics store or something similar).

    If you're just starting out (assuming you have all your equipment resolved), the first step is to get your foot in the door somewhere, anywhere, that will let you start building a fan base. You may have to make concessions to secure that first "gig", but once you're established, finding gigs is a lot easier. Remember that you are in charge of your own destiny here, so be willing to negotiate and work on your salesmanship skills.

    As far as a trade group, I'm willing to jump on the initial organization, though at some point I'd like a few other businesses to help manage things. I'm envisioning a group that agrees to certain standards of practice, is available to each other for advice and tips, and is willing to collaborate across markets to promote the good of the group. I'd LOVE to get approval from Harmonix once this organization gets started; that way, we could market ourselves as members of the "Official Organization for blah blah blah Rock Band". You'd be surprised how much a little sense of legitimacy helps at the negotiating table.
  • KlubbyKlubby Unsigned
    edited March 2009
    LiquidKourage;2153708 said:
    Local fests might be a great way to promote your own brand, but you have to consider how "everyone" wins. You'll probably have to pay to secure a booth, and from there, what exactly are you promoting that will result in you making money?
    Basically, it's just another way to get the word out. Just because we'd be in a bar or two regularly doesn't mean we wouldn't be able to expand and take reservations for other events. I foresee our set-up(s) being completely mobile.

    We would be promoting the services we provide and that we are available for parties, bars, charity events, etc... much like a DJ or karaoke service. Nothing sells better than by showing the customers what you can do. If we are stuck in a couple of bars all the time, only those patrons would know who we are.

    I think just by having the buzz of a small crowd around a booth blaring some rock music with guests playing along would make people ask... "what are you guys doing exactly?" Heck, the Army even has GH in their recruiting booths. I know that's a bit of a strech since the product they are selling is completely different... but you should see the crowds they can gather - especially the younger crowd who aren't 21+.

    We would have branding surrounding the booth, obviously, along with business cards, flyers, and other giveaways with our branding on it.

    Maybe one day someone would be planning a birthday party and think, "who were those guys for hire at that street festival?"

    Yes, we'd have to pay for the booth. I just think to make money, you need to spend some too.
  • LiquidKourageLiquidKourage Opening Act
    edited March 2009
    @Klubby:

    I'm certainly not knocking the idea of a fest/fair presence; I was just throwing out a few rhetorical questions that people looking to get involved might want to be able to answer to ensure they're not wasting time and/or money. I agree that most setups are going to be easily mobile, and that people who do this professionally aren't going to find themselves too limited by not having enough "rigs".

    I guess it really just boils down to what market you're looking to approach. Me, I'm happy in the bar scene. Others may go the more mobile route and market parties, weddings, etc. and if that's the case, expos and fests (anywhere you would set up a booth to promote) are a pretty good method of exposure.
  • YRDaddyYRDaddy Road Warrior
    edited March 2009
    Charity events are another great way to gain exposure. They will bring you a lot of exposure, they won't cost you anything other than time, and you will actually be doing a good deed. We handled the set up for Kotakus "Funde Razor" event for the Childs Play foundation in December which bring both clients and participants at our other locations.
  • CalendyrCalendyr Unsigned
    edited March 2009
    The idea of a group is interesting. Could help us people starting out benefit from the experience of people who have been doing this for some time. Also we could have information regarding needed material (Console, Instruments, Amplifiers and speakers, PA system, auxilliairy audio sources like CD and DVD, Projectors, TVs, etc).

    Information about making contracts, suggestions on how to negotiate a financial compensation, publicity and all that would be very usefull too.
  • CalendyrCalendyr Unsigned
    edited March 2009
    In my calculation, a full set of equipment would cost in between 5,000$ to 7,000$. One can certainly start with less than that and add material as they go.

    One question I have is this. Is it important for the public to see the screen? Or is it better to only have the people playing see it? This makes for a difference in terms of equipment needed.

    An other thing, is there a way to make an LCD TV (say 42 inches) be used on some sort of stand? Putting a table for the TV might be complicated I think and not very appealing in terms of looks. I guess you could probably build something using wood or PVC but if it was already available for purchase it would be a lot better.
  • YRDaddyYRDaddy Road Warrior
    edited March 2009
    Calendyr;2156823 said:
    In my calculation, a full set of equipment would cost in between 5,000$ to 7,000$. One can certainly start with less than that and add material as they go.

    One question I have is this. Is it important for the public to see the screen? Or is it better to only have the people playing see it? This makes for a difference in terms of equipment needed.

    An other thing, is there a way to make an LCD TV (say 42 inches) be used on some sort of stand? Putting a table for the TV might be complicated I think and not very appealing in terms of looks. I guess you could probably build something using wood or PVC but if it was already available for purchase it would be a lot better.
    Here is a decent pic of the set up I use: http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=382065742&albumID=926012&imageID=14865972 The projector is on the wall to the right. It is both important for the players to have a nice screen as well as the crowd to be able to see what is going on. You will have newbies that won't understand what the people are doing on stage until they actually watch the screen at the same time. I have a 42 inch mounted on a modified amp stand. It was really easy and only cost about $25 in parts. You can definetely start out cheaper then you expect (I think my total start up was about $2000)and then use the money made from Rock Band to purchase new equipment. Search craigslist and backpage for used PA systems and projectors. I highly recommend Vizio brand tv's because they are cheap and durable (definitely go flat screen!). The only 1 that has gone out on me is because I broke it. Don't worry about HD cables. Standard composite (RCA) work just fine and you can get them cheaper and longer. Beside's, the people are just looking at colored rectangles anyways and they are usually half drunk while they are doing it ;)
  • KlubbyKlubby Unsigned
    edited March 2009
    "Half drunk"... that brings up another question I was thinking - and it's a complete "what if" scenario. What sort of insurance do other owner's carry besides the obvious equipment insurance? Do you have liability insurance in case, for some crazy reason, someone got drunk and pissed and starting throwing sticks or smashing someone over the head with a guitar. I would assume this would be a very RARE thing... but what if? :)
  • LiquidKourageLiquidKourage Opening Act
    edited March 2009
    As far as insurance, there are companies that provide business liability insurance, but honestly... I've gone years without any issue. It's your choice, but the odds of being sued because of an injury you might be liable for are really really slim. Now, insuring your equipment... that's another story, because strange things happen. TV's fall, consoles get knocked over, instruments break down, etc.

    You can get a full set up for a few thousand; I estimate my current rig is worth $3,000 including DLC.

    Using projectors and flat-screen TVs is something you should think about due to video lag. My preferred setup at the moment is a 25" CRT TV for the players, and a split signal into some sort of house TV for the audience. There's usually a lag on the audience screen, but that's basically irrelevent. Of course, if you can 100% dial in the video calibration for your player screen, more power to you.
  • CalendyrCalendyr Unsigned
    edited March 2009
    The bar or restaurant you set up at should have insurrance for that sort of things. For the equipment, I guess it would depend how much the insurrance cost, but I think I would prefer to put aside some money in case something breaks instead of paying 50-100$ per month to an insurance company.

    You are right, I did not think about the fact the audience might not understand how people can just walk to the stage and play unless they see the screen too.

    When you say a modified Amp stand. Can you give me a little bit more details? Your stand looks perfect on that picture. I was thinking of having the video signal split in 3. One for the projector (for the audience), one for a 40-42 inch screen for the Singer, guitarist and basist and a smaller screen (22 inch probably) for the drummer at the back. I wanted to go Component but S-Video or composite might be a fair bit cheaper. I think that lyrics would look really bad in composite though. I tried it on a friend's projector and we could not real the scrolling ones. We had to switch the lyric display to lines, and that is much harder to sing along to.

    Going used for some of the equipment definatelly would lower cost. Pawn shops might not be a bad place to look for some of the stuff like speakers and PA system. Although with a Mixer, you could simply use a pre-amp for the mic I think.

    I am meeting the owner of the bar I plan to set up at first tomorrow, will let you know how it went.

    In terms of advertising for the first events, what would you guy suggest? I was thinking flyers in the immediate area around the bar. Then activity section in the local newspaper and maybe a mention during a radio show. My guess is that once you have some people coming who likes it, word of mouth will do the rest. But it is important to get the ball rolling so that you don't have only 5 people show up ;) The bar I plan to do this at has no business during the evenings, so I won't be able to count on people already there.
  • LiquidKourageLiquidKourage Opening Act
    edited March 2009
    Hit the web hard for advertising if you're near a decent metro area. The forums here, of course, as well as Scorehero, Facebook, Myspace, and Twitter are the vast majority of my marketing. I also advertise in a few local entertainment magazines but they really don't bring a turnout. (Side note: Why do I spend $400 a month on useless ads?)
  • RavaanaRavaana Opening Act
    edited March 2009
    OI

    We do the same thing here in Austin at Elysium on Tuesdays.

    It has been pretty fun, and so far has worked out. As for our setup we have,

    2 Wireless guitars,
    Wired RB mic (since someone broke one of our other mics, went back to el cheapo)
    1 Wireless Drum kit (RB2/ debating on Ion, setup)
    2 Projectors, one behind stage and one slightly off center near stage right.
    We use the Xbox 360 well because it is cheaper than the PS3.

    2 DJs for entertainment between song selection,
    About 4-5 "House musicians" to fill in if a full band cannot be located for a person.
    well over 400 songs and a constantly updated set of lists organized by song, band, and recent additions.

    most other info can be found here http://www.rockband.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111714
  • ssijayssijay Unsigned
    edited March 2009
    http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/inde...ageID=14865972.
    I noticed in ur pic the tv is mounted on a stand.

    What stand is that?

    Also, how did you mount the tv for the drummer?

    What hardware did you use and where did you find them?

    Thanx in advance.
  • YRDaddyYRDaddy Road Warrior
    edited March 2009
    ssijay;2160398 said:
    http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/inde...ageID=14865972.
    I noticed in ur pic the tv is mounted on a stand.

    What stand is that?

    Also, how did you mount the tv for the drummer?

    What hardware did you use and where did you find them?

    Thanx in advance.

    The link doesnt work but my front 42" tv is mounted on a modified portable amp stand http://accessories.musiciansfriend.com/product/Musicians-Gear-Deluxe-Amp-Stand?sku=451065 and the drum tv is mounted with a combo of a modified conductors stand http://accessories.musiciansfriend.com/product/OnStage-Stands-Conductor-Stand?sku=450253 and a broken and used bass drum that cost about $20 from a used music store. I work in a sheet metal shop so it is easy to modify stuff like this. :D
  • ZoologicoZoologico Opening Act
    edited March 2009
    Can anyone comment on how much it costs to have 100% of DLC?

    http://www.rockband.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130986
  • ZoologicoZoologico Opening Act
    edited March 2009
    Ravaana;2158863 said:
    OI

    We do the same thing here in Austin at Elysium on Tuesdays.

    It has been pretty fun, and so far has worked out. As for our setup we have,

    2 Wireless guitars,
    Wired RB mic (since someone broke one of our other mics, went back to el cheapo)
    1 Wireless Drum kit (RB2/ debating on Ion, setup)
    2 Projectors, one behind stage and one slightly off center near stage right.
    We use the Xbox 360 well because it is cheaper than the PS3.

    2 DJs for entertainment between song selection,
    About 4-5 "House musicians" to fill in if a full band cannot be located for a person.
    well over 400 songs and a constantly updated set of lists organized by song, band, and recent additions.

    most other info can be found here http://www.rockband.com/forums/showthread.php?t=111714
    I noticed you mentioned you had a couple of bugs to work out.
    Can you share what they were?
  • LiquidKourageLiquidKourage Opening Act
    edited March 2009
    Yeah, DLC costs will pile up, but in the long run they are a standard operating cost (and you can always write them off). $800 is the cumulative cost for about a year and a half's worth of DLC; it's better to realize you're looking at about $50 a month, which even hosting one show a month can come directly from your fee.

    Currently, I have about 80% of DLC. Every few weeks I throw about $50 into the store, buy any albums first, packs containing well-known songs, then single songs (i.e. not available in a pack) that are well-known, then I start working on my backlog of "unpopular" DLC.
  • ZoologicoZoologico Opening Act
    edited March 2009
    Where is everybody in this thread located?
  • KlubbyKlubby Unsigned
    edited March 2009
  • LiquidKourageLiquidKourage Opening Act
    edited March 2009
    Also in Chicago, but more focused on the suburban market. That's why Klubby and I are allowed to be friends, rather than slashing each other's tires :)
  • BIGTIMEJAMMERBIGTIMEJAMMER Unsigned
    edited March 2009
    In previous posts I read that it is illegal to charge to particapate. but has anyone thought about this idea?

    instead of just hosting rockband night, what if we put on a tournament.

    Would this be illegal to charge to enter a tournament?

    I've been in the planning stages of putting together some guidelines for a multi bar tournament series with a huge cash payout for the winners.

    I'm having a hard time believing it's ilegal to pay to enter a tournament. Or should I say to charge a fee to enter.

    This thread is what I've been looking for as far as people interested in a nationwide organization of rockband and GHWT promoters.

    but I guess the first order of business would be the the legal aspects. I operate a free Poker league which operates in bars weekly. For the poker I can not charge to play because poker is considered gambling. The bars pay to host the tournaments. I was hoping to add this promotion to my list of bar promotions.

    could someone explain why it is illegal to charge to enter a tournament?

    I would think it was no differnt than bowling, darts, or pool which all have huge tournaments and all charge to enter.

    Please reply if you have knowledge of the legal aspects here.

    Thanks
    BIGTIMEJAMMER
  • KlubbyKlubby Unsigned
    edited March 2009
    The difference is at pool, bowling and darts, those things aren't licensed. You pay to play each time anyway usually.

    With Rock Band, one user holds the license for the music that is being played. Therefore, that user cannot charge someone else to play. It would almost be similar to buying a CD, burning a bunch of copies and then selling it.

    I have paid to actually enter a tournament, but it was for a charity benefit. The bands weren't "paying to play," they were paying into the charity, not only for the charity, but also for the prizes being awarded.

    I have seen other tournaments where prizes were being awarded and such, but don't know how that works or how it would have to be "worded" legally. I guess you would have to say that the entry fees are there to cover for the prizes themselves, not for the band to play.

    Then again, I'm not a lawyer, or Harmonix or any sort of expert on the subject so I guess I shouldn't have replied. lol ;)

    ETA: I wonder if the kind folks at Harmonix are taking note of this thread? I would love to hear their input on the legalities of such things... I personally don't think THEY would have a problem as it is only a bunch of free advertising. I'm not sure about record companies and such.
  • BIGTIMEJAMMERBIGTIMEJAMMER Unsigned
    edited March 2009
    Thanks Klubby

    interesting..... there are at least 3 pay to play tournaments listed here on these forums.

    And as far as the folks at Harmonics go..... well I emailed them a couple times to see if there were any legal issues I need to take care of and they never even replied with even so much as a thank you for your email.

    The entry fees would be used to pay the Grand prize 10k and also all lower cash prizes. And a mere percentage would be kept for operating expense such as advertizing, website, and you know the rest. And don't forget a little something for yours truely.

    I understand what your saying about the lic. but by the same token a karoke song is still licensed. And someone is paying to have the song played. the record companies are not getting anything from that. Harmonics is not getting a cut of a karoke operators revenue. And someone is paying for the use of the game, songs, and equipment.

    I too would love to hear from the good folks at Harmonics.

    Don't get me wrong Klubby I'm not trying to have a legal debate here I probably, no let me say, "I for sure know less than you about the legal part". I'm just having a hard time understanding the differnce between the 2 promotions. And I suppose most of my wonderment comes from the fact that everyone is already doing it on a small scale already.

    There are gamer sites where you buy tokens and use them to get into tournaments that pay money. And not just for RockBand for many many games.

    but once again this is small time compaired to what I want to do. Most tournaments that you can enter pay $100 to win all the way to $300 is the most I've seen. I plan on paying 10k to the winner and many more cash prizes.

    The game is a hit with young and old (I'm 49) and if allowed by law my idea will provide the bar owners great entertainment for the crowd, promote sales of the game and gear, and put some big cash in a few americans hands. And for those who don't make any cash they will still be satisfied with just being able to perform. I'm at a loss to see why anyone would object.

    thanks for the reply looking forward to more.

    And if anyone from Harmonics reads this please share with us the legality of pay to play.
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