RBN: Just Indie Bands?

KariodudeKariodude Road Warrior
edited July 2009 in The Rock Band Network
I don't really understand people's logic when they say this. The main thing I keep coming back to is that major labels might hire a group of people just to make charts for their bands song constantly and pump out as much DLC as possible. Local independent bands are going to have to figure out how to do everything themselves even more than they do being an unsigned band in the first place. Think about this scenario:

Warner Music Group hears about the RBN. They decide they like money and could just hire a group of 10-20 people to chart their songs. They could then release singles the same day they are released for radio, release albums the same day they hit store shelves, and release classic songs in the midst of the new for even more cash. This group would ONLY be making charts for songs round the clock 5 days a week. A record label would be stupid to not cash in on something so simple.

See, from my point of view, it's actually going to be a lot easier for bigger bands and labels to get in on this than unsigned indie bands. A lot of indie bands don't even have the proper recording equipment to record seperate tracks successfully for them to be used in Rock Band.

Am I just completely delusional? I feel like I'm the only one seeing things this way

Comments

  • afterstasisafterstasis Washed Up
    edited July 2009
    stelite;2736447 said:
    So in RBN we will have indie bands the most cos big labels will still go for regular DLC deals...i can't see where i am incorrect....?
    you stated that bands like U2 would no longer be offered the regular route for DLC, and that's not true... that option is still there, along with the new RBN method.

    i VERY seriously doubt HMX is going to stop pursuing any major bands because of the RBN...
    if anything, they may be able to focus on bands they consider more vital for regular DLC, knowing that RBN is raking in more indie bands with less effort on their part.

    we will have to wait and see how the major labels and bands take to the RBN... i personally suspect it will be a much bigger hit amongst smaller labels and bands, but for all we know this could be something the big labels/bands see a lot of merit (AKA: $$$) in.
  • disco_studisco_stu Opening Act
    edited July 2009
    I'm thinking really obscure bands will be heard about first on RBN, using the gaming community as a platform. Record labels will monitor the sales and snap up the popular acts.

    Nothing innately new about that, but everyone wins. Labels, bands and we get DLC.

    Mainstream acts will be just as hard to get and we'll still be getting them via regular DLC, unless authors want to stick a few EP's etc on there to see.

    Supergroups and huge bands of the last 60 years will be just as impossible. So don't go thinking this is Zep time.
  • princeofcupsprinceofcups Road Warrior
    edited July 2009
    afterstasis;2736424 said:
    incorrect... regular DLC will still be provided, and i seriously doubt the terms and contracts will be any different for bands who take that route.

    RBN is simply another option...
    Your songs have to undergo peer review. Songs will come out in dribs and drabs. Does any megacorp want to do that? Besides, as much as we think that the world revolves around RB, to the corps this is just one small outlet, and I don't see it getting that much attention. Not to mention that they are possibly missing out on the PS3/Wii market.
  • Avatar_KoAvatar_Ko Road Warrior
    edited July 2009
    Kariodude;2736267 said:
    I don't really understand people's logic when they say this. The main thing I keep coming back to is that major labels might hire a group of people just to make charts for their bands song constantly and pump out as much DLC as possible. Local independent bands are going to have to figure out how to do everything themselves even more than they do being an unsigned band in the first place. Think about this scenario:

    Warner Music Group hears about the RBN. They decide they like money and could just hire a group of 10-20 people to chart their songs. They could then release singles the same day they are released for radio, release albums the same day they hit store shelves, and release classic songs in the midst of the new for even more cash. This group would ONLY be making charts for songs round the clock 5 days a week. A record label would be stupid to not cash in on something so simple.

    See, from my point of view, it's actually going to be a lot easier for bigger bands and labels to get in on this than unsigned indie bands. A lot of indie bands don't even have the proper recording equipment to record seperate tracks successfully for them to be used in Rock Band.

    Am I just completely delusional? I feel like I'm the only one seeing things this way
    Of course you're right, but how else could it work? I think there's just a lot of people who are excited that (insert band that nobody knows here) can finally be in Rock Band.
  • afterstasisafterstasis Washed Up
    edited July 2009
    princeofcups;2736476 said:
    Your songs have to undergo peer review. Songs will come out in dribs and drabs. Does any megacorp want to do that? Besides, as much as we think that the world revolves around RB, to the corps this is just one small outlet, and I don't see it getting that much attention.
    that's very possible, but i remember similar things being said about major artists never receiving much attention via DLC (basically saying that big artists will want to stick to on-disc songs for these games)...

    since then we've had huge packs/albums from bands like iron maiden, no doubt, the who, foo fighters, nirvana, and rush.
    we've also had songs that quite possibly trump the biggest songs on-disc, such as "don't stop believing", "all the small things", "wonderwall", "dr feelgood", and "jeremy".

    i'd honestly be surprised if it becomes a total success with the major labels, but i would be even more surprised if they didn't at least give it a shot...
    if anything, i imagine they'll try it out first with their lesser known artists and lesser known songs from bigger artists...
    i also agree with other posters that it could very well become a pretty successful advertising tool (RBN versions of new releases, including codes with CD's to download a few songs from the RBN version of the album, etc.)
  • Lawdog1521Lawdog1521 Squirrel Chasing Expert
    edited July 2009
    The only bands I can see the major labels using this for are bands your probably not going to be excited about. (Whatever the tweener band of the moment is.) Bands Harmonix wouldn't pursue but labels still want to promote. (I.E. the entire Naked Brothers catalog)
  • Avatar_KoAvatar_Ko Road Warrior
    edited July 2009
    princeofcups;2736476 said:
    Your songs have to undergo peer review. Songs will come out in dribs and drabs. Does any megacorp want to do that? Besides, as much as we think that the world revolves around RB, to the corps this is just one small outlet, and I don't see it getting that much attention. Not to mention that they are possibly missing out on the PS3/Wii market.
    Um, that's better than the way it happens now. The labels give HMX some songs (but only so many because HMX can only do so much) and they wait for months for Harmonix to get them done and in the store. The RBN makes it easier by moving stuff in-house and giving the labels more control.
  • disco_studisco_stu Opening Act
    edited July 2009
    Jonas Brothers...

    ..oh no..

    ...what have we done??
  • afterstasisafterstasis Washed Up
    edited July 2009
    Lawdog1521;2736523 said:
    The only bands I can see the major labels using this for are bands your probably not going to be excited about. (Whatever the tweener band of the moment is.) Bands Harmonix wouldn't pursue but labels still want to promote. (I.E. the entire Naked Brothers catalog)
    while it could very well include tween-pop bands it will also open the doors for bands like the black keys, sebadoh, bad brains, the rentals, wilco, the magnetic fields, echo & the bunnymen, mojave 3, and spacehog (all bands under the warner bros imprint who may not cause a lot of commotion via the regular DLC, but would still make quite a few sales from less casual music fans).
  • woodwindpizzawoodwindpizza Road Warrior
    edited July 2009
    RBN is just way for more bands to give us songs faster and have a much better chance of being in the game through DLC. Am I correct?
  • Mr. TateMr. Tate Road Warrior
    edited July 2009
    There's no way a medium-to-major act will accept that they can't advertise or push their songs because a group of players still need to approve them. If RBN will be about peer reviews for content, and not simply for technical accuracy, I think we will mostly see minor bands.
  • Avatar_KoAvatar_Ko Road Warrior
    edited July 2009
    Mr. Tate;2736809 said:
    There's no way a medium-to-major act will accept that they can't advertise or push their songs because a group of players still need to approve them. If RBN will be about peer reviews for content, and not simply for technical accuracy, I think we will mostly see minor bands.
    Um, it's not. Harmonix only reviews them for quality of charting, content and licensing. Then they go on the 360. After a month, they'll spread out and there's no way that medium-to-major acts will have any trouble spreading out.
  • kingtonyxkingtonyx Unofficial
    edited July 2009
    Obviously the labels would learn how long the approval process takes and submit the tracks accordingly... or perhaps certain tracks will get more immediate attention from the reviewers in order to hit a certain date.
  • Coach ZCoach Z Opening Act
    edited July 2009
    Indie bands are going for exposure, not cash - they'll flood RBN with 50 cent songs for the win.
  • Mr. TateMr. Tate Road Warrior
    edited July 2009
    Avatar_Ko;2736818 said:
    Um, it's not. Harmonix only reviews them for quality of charting, content and licensing.
    No they don't. The *community* will review the songs, not Harmonix. I may agree that medium-to-big acts would get through community review, bu still someone must tell the label, and the label must tell the artists, that they have no power over whether they are published or not, it's up to the people. Not buying them, but approving them for distribution.
  • Mr. TateMr. Tate Road Warrior
    edited July 2009
    Avatar_Ko;2736530 said:
    Um, that's better than the way it happens now. The labels give HMX some songs (but only so many because HMX can only do so much) and they wait for months for Harmonix to get them done and in the store. The RBN makes it easier by moving stuff in-house and giving the labels more control.
    Yes, but no. This is the very objection I made yesterday. The fact that you have to go through the process of creating the charts, with all the money and time involved, without knowing that your song will be published is a potential turnoff. You can't even promote your song or announce that it's been developed for the game, because you can't be sure that it will make it. Once the approval process is explained we'll know more but as of now labels are on the same field of single users who composed an acoustic guitar ballad, but they have very different needs and targets...
  • Magik_TekMagik_Tek Opening Act
    edited July 2009
    Coach Z;2737098 said:
    Indie bands are going for exposure, not cash - they'll flood RBN with 50 cent songs for the win.
    That's pretty much how I see it as well.

    Major labels are going to use a wait and see approach before they ever consider putting resources into RBN. Traditional licensing will still be the preferred way major labels conduct their business because those licensing deals are lucrative and the payout per download is greater than RBN.

    The way I see things working out in the future regarding DLC as whole is:

    - Indie/smaller bands will use RBN as a avenue to get their band known. For them RBN is going to help them build a fanbase who will than in turn go to concerts, buy CDS and ultimately help them get signed to a major label. Of course they earn a some money but the promotion they get through RBN is what is most important

    - The big bands like Metallica, Muse, Iron Maidens etc will continue with the traditional licensing as I said before, its more lucrative in the long run

    - RBN is going to have A LOT of new singles from all bands. We saw the positive effects when Motley Crue released Saints of Los Angeles and I bet we will see it again with more bands in the future.
  • quinakingquinaking Road Warrior
    edited July 2009
    Harmonix is doing it, that makes it a good idea.
  • cherokeesamcherokeesam Washed Up
    edited July 2009
    Mr. Tate;2738281 said:
    Yes, but no. This is the very objection I made yesterday. The fact that you have to go through the process of creating the charts, with all the money and time involved, without knowing that your song will be published is a potential turnoff. You can't even promote your song or announce that it's been developed for the game, because you can't be sure that it will make it. Once the approval process is explained we'll know more but as of now labels are on the same field of single users who composed an acoustic guitar ballad, but they have very different needs and targets...
    To be honest, I don't see the problem of songs being rejected coming up much at all. Yes, all songs will have to undergo peer review, and HMX will review them also, but other than encountering completely objectionable content, songs longer than 10 minutes, songs that have been *grossly* mischarted, or other format errors, I don't see HMX turning down a song for any other reason.

    I'm sure there'll be plenty of peer "reviews" that will run along the lines of "ZOMG! This band is teh suxxors....don't put them in RBN" and "LOLWTF guitar chart?!? not enuf triple chords, wheres my hopo dammit etc etc", but those will NOT constitute legitimate reasons to reject a song.
  • Mr. TateMr. Tate Road Warrior
    edited July 2009
    cherokeesam;2738652 said:
    To be honest, I don't see the problem of songs being rejected coming up much at all. Yes, all songs will have to undergo peer review, and HMX will review them also, but other than encountering completely objectionable content, songs longer than 10 minutes, songs that have been *grossly* mischarted, or other format errors, I don't see HMX turning down a song for any other reason.
    It's not Harmonix, it's the peer reviews. Obviously I don't object to any review made by the actual distribution system owner.
    cherokeesam;2738652 said:

    I'm sure there'll be plenty of peer "reviews" that will run along the lines of "ZOMG! This band is teh suxxors....don't put them in RBN" and "LOLWTF guitar chart?!? not enuf triple chords, wheres my hopo dammit etc etc", but those will NOT constitute legitimate reasons to reject a song.
    I can understand that, and even more so I think that the peer review system will just be a deterrent for medium-to-big acts. Obviously I say this knowing that a lot has still to be said about this system and that I may be wrong, but if it really is about peers revewing, I really don't see the good in it when it comes to approving the song (rating, commenting, tiering? Excellent. Approving? Not so much).

    And the reason is simple, and it goes both ways: is the review system, as I fear, going to exclude songs not really to the liking of the community (obscure genres, very easy songs, etc.), be it for insufficient reviewers testing the songs or approving them? Then the labels and the artists have one huge reason not to invest time and money: complete uncertainty in the face of investments made. Is the review system, as you suggest, going to just be a technical check and all songs will just be approved, excluding of course those lacking legal rights to the song by the submitter, obscene lyrics and technical faults? Then it's just going to be something that will prevent artists and bands from knowing for sure that they will be published, without really giving any advantage to the community by filtering not-so-good songs.

    Either way, this is an interesting system for really small acts and music loving individuals. They will put time, money and passion into trying to have one song published. They won't care if a "jury of their peers" will have to approve or not. Heck, they may even be happy that some songs won't pass, because if theirs does, then they're better than the others. But they don't make a business out of it, so they don't need to advertise, to plan and to keep a different appearance. This is going to be awesome, nothing less, from a player's point of view, and even more from a reviewer's. Artists side? Mmm, as things stand not so much, at least not for those we would really like to see.

    This isn't, in my humble opinion, the flood gates opening that we speculated about months ago when a few of us, me included, suggested a developers kit. It's going to be huge, but it could be bigger, I hope Harmonix will reconsider about this specific facet of the project. Really, just imagine someone going up to, say, Queensryche or Fates Warning management and tell them "Let's pay for the charts, let's even re-record a few singles, let's put them up in a system along side really small acts. Of course, players will still decide if we're gonna be distributed...". It won't fly with medium-to-big acts, in my opinion, IF, I repeat IF, the peers review system will be as I fear. If it's just going to be technical reviewing, well, it's a horse of another color.
  • SchultzySchultzy Rising Star
    edited July 2009
    Wow. To the OP; I NEVER looked at it like that before. Very interesting...
  • KnucklesdudeKnucklesdude Rising Star
    edited July 2009
    Medium-to-big acts will more likely contract with a company like Rhythm Authors. There is a very common promise I can guarantee the authors will be making - it's that the music will make it through peer review. And Rhythm Authors does promise that.

    And people disapproving of music because of some immature bias will likely be ignored. If it truly becomes a problem, I'm sure Harmonix will develop a deterrent or filter for it.
  • KasilKasil Rising Star
    edited July 2009
    I'm thinking that you won't be able to put up the usual $2 a song price point using RBN, so the major labels would potentially be losing money, not to mention HMX wouldn't need to pay licensing fees to them, and thus they don't gain as much money as they could. Better to be asked by HMX than do it yourself and make less for the companies.
  • harveyglobetrotharveyglobetrot Road Warrior
    edited July 2009
    Kasil;2739112 said:
    I'm thinking that you won't be able to put up the usual $2 a song price point using RBN, so the major labels would potentially be losing money, not to mention HMX wouldn't need to pay licensing fees to them, and thus they don't gain as much money as they could. Better to be asked by HMX than do it yourself and make less for the companies.
    The uploader to RBN can choose the price for his/her/their song, ranging between $1 and $3.

    I see RBN as a democratising agent. Sure, the biggest major can use it just as easily as the smallest indie label or garage band, but it is going to have far more benefit to the smaller players than the bigger. It isn't only for indie bands, but, at least initially, it will be indie bands who benefit the most and who will use it the most.
  • KasilKasil Rising Star
    edited July 2009
    harveyglobetrot;2739134 said:
    The uploader to RBN can choose the price for his/her/their song, ranging between $1 and $3.

    I see RBN as a democratising agent. Sure, the biggest major can use it just as easily as the smallest indie label or garage band, but it is going to have far more benefit to the smaller players than the bigger. It isn't only for indie bands, but, at least initially, it will be indie bands who benefit the most and who will use it the most.
    I didn't realize they had announced a price point, but still, the labels will make more money with licensing fees followed by profit from the songs rather than just from the songs.
  • Die-Guitar-HeroDie-Guitar-Hero Rising Star
    edited July 2009
    I really just hope the music industry cares about this as much as we do. I think the only real speed bump is rock band's considered significance. Rock Band Network turns that table completely. Harmonix was tasked with choosing artists based on their relative significance/profitability and now it's up to the artists to make that call.
  • Magik_TekMagik_Tek Opening Act
    edited July 2009
    Mr. Tate;2738908 said:
    And the reason is simple, and it goes both ways: is the review system, as I fear, going to exclude songs not really to the liking of the community (obscure genres, very easy songs, etc.), be it for insufficient reviewers testing the songs or approving them? Then the labels and the artists have one huge reason not to invest time and money: complete uncertainty in the face of investments made. Is the review system, as you suggest, going to just be a technical check and all songs will just be approved, excluding of course those lacking legal rights to the song by the submitter, obscene lyrics and technical faults? Then it's just going to be something that will prevent artists and bands from knowing for sure that they will be published, without really giving any advantage to the community by filtering not-so-good songs.

    RBN is not some sort of popularity contest where songs are judged on the reviewers personal liking. I don't know where you are getting this.

    The peer review system is similar to a QA process where certain requirements must be met before it goes to final approval. ie Checking for broken notes, sound problems, spelling mistakes etc.
  • cherokeesamcherokeesam Washed Up
    edited July 2009
    Magik_Tek;2739305 said:
    RBN is not some sort of popularity contest where songs are judged on the reviewers personal liking. I don't know where you are getting this.

    The peer review system is similar to a QA process where certain requirements must be met before it goes to final approval. ie Checking for broken notes, sound problems, spelling mistakes etc.
    ^This.

    Nowhere in the press releases/FAQs so far does it indicate that bands who submit material (whether they're unknown or bona fide Gods of Rock) will be at the mercy of some 13-year old geek who doesn't like the way they sound.
  • cherokeesamcherokeesam Washed Up
    edited July 2009
    Kasil;2739239 said:
    I didn't realize they had announced a price point, but still, the labels will make more money with licensing fees followed by profit from the songs rather than just from the songs.
    Not necessarily.

    Believe it or not, a $3 US price point *will* look very attractive to even the big guns/labels, as opposed to the standard $1.99 they currently earn on RB. A 50% increase in profit margin will make RBN look very sweet, indeed.

    And I'd be willing to bet that HMX will *only* let established acts -- not the unknowns -- charge the $3 price point.
  • bobushka kingbobushka king Unsigned
    edited July 2009
    Kariodude;2736267 said:
    I don't really understand people's logic when they say this. The main thing I keep coming back to is that major labels might hire a group of people just to make charts for their bands song constantly and pump out as much DLC as possible. Local independent bands are going to have to figure out how to do everything themselves even more than they do being an unsigned band in the first place. Think about this scenario:

    Warner Music Group hears about the RBN. They decide they like money and could just hire a group of 10-20 people to chart their songs. They could then release singles the same day they are released for radio, release albums the same day they hit store shelves, and release classic songs in the midst of the new for even more cash. This group would ONLY be making charts for songs round the clock 5 days a week. A record label would be stupid to not cash in on something so simple.

    See, from my point of view, it's actually going to be a lot easier for bigger bands and labels to get in on this than unsigned indie bands. A lot of indie bands don't even have the proper recording equipment to record seperate tracks successfully for them to be used in Rock Band.

    Am I just completely delusional? I feel like I'm the only one seeing things this way

    I agree with you on some of your points, but heres my take on it.

    I don't think larger bands/labels will be seen on RBN for at least a few months. I believe they will want to sit back and see how the whole process works and see if the song submitted generate a high download rate (more or less see if any of us buy songs from there). If labels see that us consumers are buying songs they may have an outside company "create" a few songs from a mid to larger band/s to test the waters. If it sells I can foresee labels hiring a small staff (a few people) to make songs to put on RBN.

    Here's my reasoning behind this.

    -From a monetary standpoint the song owner gets 30% of each download. It's not out of the question that a more well known band could sell 20,000 downloads of a single song. At $2 a download the label/band would generate $12,000... from a single song. If a single employee can produce one song a day (which would cost around $300 or so figuring on $30 an hour plus other expenses) that is a huge profit margin. If a major label really embraces RBN they could be looking at millions in revenue with very little cost.

    -With a mid range band, especially one that has been "off the radar" for a while, RBN may be seen as a great way to promote a new album or tour. If a band puts up their new album/hit/some older hits it could generate quite a bit of buzz and increase record and ticket sales.

    -There's also the prospect that a label will "test the waters" with a new band they may be looking to sign. If they have staff members creating the songs they could submit a couple songs from a band to see how well it sells.

    That is just my humble opinion (and hope) of how RBN is going to work. I know there is going to be a slew or indie/underground bands submitting songs, that is inevitable as this provides them with a great springboard to get their music out. And I also know that we may never see some of the "monster" bands (Led, Pink Floyd, U2, etc.) ever have a song on the RBN, but I'm hoping that some of the larger acts can see the benefits of this program and utilize it.

    I also want to thank HMX for thinking up and creating such an amazing concepts. Once again you have not only evolved the rhythm/music video game genre, but complete flipped it on its head.
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