Why Can't Wii Do It Up Front?

edited August 2009 in The Rock Band Network
if you may not have known, the wii has a system that allows people to create virtual games and release them to nintendo for sale, very similar to microsofts XNA , so my question is, since the wii has the infrastructure for this (LOL i know), why can't we do it at the same time as the 360?

Comments

  • AKALinkAKALink Road Warrior
    edited August 2009
    Because Nintendo is pretty messed up company in the online department. If a independent game developer doesn't make enough sales on their game they get no profit. That would probably be the same with songs on the Wii RBN
  • edited August 2009
    yah, i guess, but still, we have the tools
    we can re-build him
    ...but i don't wanna spend a lot of money
    he is THE 10 DOLLAR MAN
  • DanB91DanB91 Rising Star
    edited August 2009
    because even if nintendo agreed to have RBN, HMX would have to patch RB2 and Wii games can't get patches.
  • edited August 2009
    wii can patch
    look at the game nintendo patched, that stupid island game or watever
  • davidshekdavidshek Community Playtester
    edited August 2009
    irockprettyhard;2914098 said:
    wii can patch
    look at the game nintendo patched, that stupid island game or watever
    No. Wiiware games can be patched because you're replacing the entire game file. Disc games cannot be patched because the Wii has no Operating System. You can't have part of a game running off internal memory and part running off the disc (like you can on a PC or Xbox or PS3). It doesn't work that way on the Wii due to lack of OS.

    And just because the front-end (meaning: customer-facing) part of the Wii's development platform SEEMS to resemble XNA does NOT mean in any way that it is even close to XNA's infrastructure.
  • iruhlmaniruhlman Opening Act
    edited August 2009
    davidshek;2914203 said:
    No. Wiiware games can be patched because you're replacing the entire game file. Disc games cannot be patched because the Wii has no Operating System. You can't have part of a game running off internal memory and part running off the disc (like you can on a PC or Xbox or PS3). It doesn't work that way on the Wii due to lack of OS.

    And just because the front-end (meaning: customer-facing) part of the Wii's development platform SEEMS to resemble XNA does NOT mean in any way that it is even close to XNA's infrastructure.
    which it isn't. XNA isn't just some rinky dink program for the 360. its actually quite complex from what I've read recently. Kinda cool how it all works with the community and the 360. I'm guessing more developers are going to do more with it in the future as HMX has raised the bar so to speak.
  • iruhlmaniruhlman Opening Act
    edited August 2009
    irockprettyhard;2912831 said:
    if you may not have known, the wii has a system that allows people to create virtual games and release them to nintendo for sale, very similar to microsofts XNA , so my question is, since the wii has the infrastructure for this (LOL i know), why can't we do it at the same time as the 360?
    where do I the gamer get those tools?
  • edited August 2009
    davidshek;2914203 said:
    No. Wiiware games can be patched because you're replacing the entire game file. Disc games cannot be patched because the Wii has no Operating System. You can't have part of a game running off internal memory and part running off the disc (like you can on a PC or Xbox or PS3). It doesn't work that way on the Wii due to lack of OS.

    And just because the front-end (meaning: customer-facing) part of the Wii's development platform SEEMS to resemble XNA does NOT mean in any way that it is even close to XNA's infrastructure.
    well explain how i can stream songs from my SD card, and from my system (like 5 songs, but as proof of concept) the wii is capable of it, but the wii is a very un-complex system, so it is harder
    short answer:it can't be done
    long answer: it can, but it would take too long
  • SFentonSFenton Opening Act
    edited August 2009
    I'ma go ahead and copy-paste my explanation from the other thread, it may be more useful here.

    Dear RB Community,
    I can't imagine that any of you haven't given thought to the Wii version of the game. As full-featured as it is, and how much each and every one of us love it, I imagine it being a near-impossible feat to accomplish technologically.

    Why? It's a bit of an odd problem that stems from issues arising from the development of the homebrew community.

    To get "our own" content into the game, options must be considered by both HMX, Nintendo, and other related third parties, options that would be less harmful to the console and more beneficial to the user, so long, so forth.

    Being originally involved in a homebrew program that allows you to put your own songs in the game (as there's not a specific area to discuss it, those who know what it is know what it is, those who don't, please don't ask), I feel that I know enough about the situation to safely discuss it.

    The first option would be to reopen a fakesignable IOS (for the newbies: firmware, sort of) in order for HMX to release, say, a channel that would search for specifically created .bin files within files on the SD Card (those who use CaitSith2's DLC Manager on the PC side know what I'm talking about), and "sign" said DLC so that it's
    A) Tied to the console
    B) Recognizable by the game.

    But how would one create the DLC? Magma and the audio editor, of course. Once completed, let's say HMX releases a Wii-specific PC tool that exports to .bin and a new file within the DLC folders of the SD Card.

    Here's where things get kind of tricky though. By reopening that fakesignable IOS, we have the ability to put our music in and "test" it. Of course, Wii will never be allowed to have an Audition mode (save for Rock Band 3 and beyond), but it would work. Two problems arise though:

    1) Without patching the savegame (like the homebrew does), the music would have to go into an existing DLC folder. That's all fine and dandy until you want to buy a DLC song that uses the same number as the music you created. So you could either:
    A) Overwrite your hard work, or
    B) Not download the DLC you want.

    2) By patching the savegame, we effectively reduce Nintendo's ability to stop piracy by reopening that IOS that Nintendo has painstakingly (not really) removed from newer Wiis. That means that everything they've attempted to do to stop homebrewers (more likely pirates, in general) is negated, only for a cause that very few people (on Wii at least) will find useful.

    What's my ideal solution? Have a WiiWare Rock Band Audition mode, and nothing more, that reads unsigned files created by a HMX-developed tool. No modifications of IOS, no savegame patchers. And if you like it, well, click a little submit button that lets you upload the file to either an NUS Server (doubt it, highly), or an HMX server (more likely). Wait for approval.

    One more small problem is monetary issues- I don't know how it works on Wii.

    As a Wii owner who loves to chart and drums in real life, I realize firmly that there is no solution in near sight that safely guards the Wii while allowing us to play our legally-created "custom songs". However, by opening my mind, offering my suggestions, and giving out a little knowledge to the community, I hope that one day, Wii owners like myself will be able to play our own, created music in a beta state and upload them to the Network for the world to see.
  • davidshekdavidshek Community Playtester
    edited August 2009
    irockprettyhard;2914959 said:
    well explain how i can stream songs from my SD card, and from my system (like 5 songs, but as proof of concept)
    How on earth is that relevant to what I said? RB2 can read songs off your SD card because it's just reading content off the card while the game is running off the disc. Which is pretty much equivalent to a game reading a save game file from an SD card or internal memory.

    That is NOT the same thing as a game running off the disc and a patch from internal memory at the same time. Not even close to the same thing.
  • stantostanto Unsigned
    edited August 2009
    davidshek;2914203 said:
    No. Wiiware games can be patched because you're replacing the entire game file. Disc games cannot be patched because the Wii has no Operating System. You can't have part of a game running off internal memory and part running off the disc (like you can on a PC or Xbox or PS3). It doesn't work that way on the Wii due to lack of OS.
    Feel free to explain to me, then, why games such as Super Mario Galaxy require the IOS to be patched before play, and come with said updates on the disc itself?

    Oh look, I said, IOS, that's like, Integrated Operating System. Mmm.

    As someone else stated; it may be possible it's just that it may be difficult to do so.
  • Yankee5423Yankee5423 Opening Act
    edited August 2009
    stanto;2918200 said:
    Feel free to explain to me, then, why games such as Super Mario Galaxy require the IOS to be patched before play, and come with said updates on the disc itself?

    Oh look, I said, IOS, that's like, Integrated Operating System. Mmm.

    As someone else stated; it may be possible it's just that it may be difficult to do so.
    Read this.
  • davidshekdavidshek Community Playtester
    edited August 2009
    stanto;2918200 said:
    Feel free to explain to me, then, why games such as Super Mario Galaxy require the IOS to be patched before play, and come with said updates on the disc itself?

    Oh look, I said, IOS, that's like, Integrated Operating System. Mmm.

    As someone else stated; it may be possible it's just that it may be difficult to do so.
    No, it's not possible. At all. Please do some research before posting things like that. Read the page that Yankee just linked, it explains it all much better than I could have here.
  • cutmaclasscutmaclass Rising Star
    edited August 2009
    Not at all similar to XNA.
  • Avatar_KoAvatar_Ko Road Warrior
    edited August 2009
    stanto;2918200 said:
    Feel free to explain to me, then, why games such as Super Mario Galaxy require the IOS to be patched before play, and come with said updates on the disc itself?

    Oh look, I said, IOS, that's like, Integrated Operating System. Mmm.

    As someone else stated; it may be possible it's just that it may be difficult to do so.
    That'd be funny if it was actually an operating system. The main Wii channel screen is nothing more than an application. When the Wii starts up, it is programmed to load it by default. When you start up a game, either disc-based or downloaded, the Wii does a near-complete reboot, with item to be loaded changed to the game.

    I'm sure you'll ask why you get the same home-button screen with settings and Wiimote controls. This is because Nintendo provides the code for it to every developer for inclusion, just as Nintendo provides the code for communicating with the controllers and memory cards.

    About SMG including a Wii update: Nintendo includes various things in the updates, including anti-hacking code and store updates. The update may or may not be required to play the game itself, there's no way to know, but Nintendo definitely has reasons for forcing an update anyways.
    irockprettyhard;2912831 said:
    if you may not have known, the wii has a system that allows people to create virtual games and release them to nintendo for sale, very similar to microsofts XNA , so my question is, since the wii has the infrastructure for this (LOL i know), why can't we do it at the same time as the 360?
    That's like saying that MS Paint and Photoshop are very similar because they both let you make pictures. They're completely separate programs with completely separate feature sets.
  • DanB91DanB91 Rising Star
    edited August 2009
    Avatar_Ko;2921979 said:
    That'd be funny if it was actually an operating system. The main Wii channel screen is nothing more than an application. When the Wii starts up, it is programmed to load it by default. When you start up a game, either disc-based or downloaded, the Wii does a near-complete reboot, with item to be loaded changed to the game.

    I'm sure you'll ask why you get the same home-button screen with settings and Wiimote controls. This is because Nintendo provides the code for it to every developer for inclusion, just as Nintendo provides the code for communicating with the controllers and memory cards.

    About SMG including a Wii update: Nintendo includes various things in the updates, including anti-hacking code and store updates. The update may or may not be required to play the game itself, there's no way to know, but Nintendo definitely has reasons for forcing an update anyways.



    According to the link that Yankee5423 provided, the controller communication is run through the IOS. It seems there actually IS an OS (the IOS), but it is so simplistic that it cannot support patching.

    Apparently if Nintendo wanted to they could upgrade the IOS in newer games to support patching, but that would only work in newer games and would be irrelevant to RB2.
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