Double Kick Query

EvileOLEvileOL Opening Act
edited November 2009 in The Rock Band Network
I'm currently on a track which is at 102bpm and has double kicks on 16th hits

I'm aware you're only supposed to author the right foot - but considering the difficulty of "Hammer Smashed Face" for example - is it acceptable to have the kick pedal cover all the hits?

I see it is just slow enough to put as a challenge for the expert player.

Comments

  • GeneralGilliamGeneralGilliam Opening Act
    edited November 2009
    Definitely yes, I always though the people at Haronix were ******s for only charting one foot. Charting both feet makes it ore realistic and makes it more of a challenge. It's not like if you were on the guitar and the guitarist up and down strummed, you wouldn't just chart the down strums :)

    However, only chart the double bass pedal for Expert. charting it for lower difficulties tends to make them too hard.
  • EvileOLEvileOL Opening Act
    edited November 2009
    No I understand why you can't chart both feet up to a certain speed, hence only having one pedal - you can't do blast beats with one pedal - my question is, at the tempo 102bpm, both kicks seem at a sensible speed for that extra challenge in expert.
  • GeneralGilliamGeneralGilliam Opening Act
    edited November 2009
    Yes, I understand. chart it. Plus it's hard for me to picture it being too fast, I have a double-bass pedal on my IONS so, it seems natural to chart fast double-bass.
  • TheOzoneTheOzone Road Warrior
    edited November 2009
    Make sure someone on a stock drum kit with one pedal can play it. If they can, then it's alright.
  • EvileOLEvileOL Opening Act
    edited November 2009
    That's why I ask, because "Hammer Smashed Face" is very fast and hard to keep up with, with the stock kit - so I was wondering where the line is drawn
  • davidshekdavidshek Community Playtester
    edited November 2009
    GeneralGilliam;3242500 said:
    Definitely yes, I always though the people at Haronix were ******s for only charting one foot. Charting both feet makes it ore realistic and makes it more of a challenge. It's not like if you were on the guitar and the guitarist up and down strummed, you wouldn't just chart the down strums :)

    However, only chart the double bass pedal for Expert. charting it for lower difficulties tends to make them too hard.
    Yeah that's a really good idea, coming onto the developer's own forum and calling them names...brilliant. :rolleyes:

    EvileOL: Basically, you can use the Disturbed song "Indestructible" as a guideline. If it's any faster than that, only author the right-foot notes. If it's slower than that, you can probably safely author all of them. If you end up authoring them and it's too fast, Magma will give you an error anyway.

    You can completely ignore what GeneralGilliam said. RBN drum charts stick to the same guidelines as every other RB song ever released. You don't author double kick just because one guy here said he has double pedals. The fact is that probably 99% of RB players do NOT have double pedals.
  • Siege21392Siege21392 Rising Star
    edited November 2009
    You can completely ignore what GeneralGilliam said. RBN drum charts stick to the same guidelines as every other RB song ever released. You don't author double kick just because one guy here said he has double pedals. The fact is that probably 99% of RB players do NOT have double pedals.
    ..... but can easily buy a 2nd bass pedal if need be... thats why expert + is a good idea, so they arent immedialtely pressured to buy one and can still play regular expert... yeah
  • TheOzoneTheOzone Road Warrior
    edited November 2009
    Siege21392;3242696 said:
    ..... but can easily buy a 2nd bass pedal if need be... thats why expert + is a good idea, so they arent immedialtely pressured to buy one and can still play regular expert... yeah
    But what if they don't want to buy another one/can't afford it? Then you alienate those players and make them unable to play the song with the standard equipment.

    So no.
  • Soror_YZBLSoror_YZBL Road Warrior
    edited November 2009
    EvileOL;3242480 said:
    I'm currently on a track which is at 102bpm and has double kicks on 16th hits

    I'm aware you're only supposed to author the right foot - but considering the difficulty of "Hammer Smashed Face" for example - is it acceptable to have the kick pedal cover all the hits?

    I see it is just slow enough to put as a challenge for the expert player.
    At 102 bpm, I dunno why the drummer would even play it on double kicks, other than to say "yeah, i play double kick". :)
  • trg007trg007 Your Ever Rocking RBN Forum Guru
    edited November 2009
    Do what you want if you're just playing around with a song on your own Xbox, but if you plan on releasing it to the RBN, double kicks cannot be charted (unless they are in that "gray area" like "Indestructible").
  • EvileOLEvileOL Opening Act
    edited November 2009
    Soror_YZBL;3242819 said:
    At 102 bpm, I dunno why the drummer would even play it on double kicks, other than to say "yeah, i play double kick". :)
    its actually at a speed where a metal drummer would naturally use double kicks anyway

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=conE0rXy6xM
  • wesjett08wesjett08 Rising Star
    edited November 2009
    As a drum author myself,I would author this and see if magma gives any fits ... If magma lets it go and the people in Playtesting / Peer review let it go,Then you're alright.

    Listening to it,It sounds pretty doable with one foot...Cool song also.
  • GeneralGilliamGeneralGilliam Opening Act
    edited November 2009
    This is definitely playable with a single stock pedal. I just think that if someone is charting a song with fast double bass, Expert should have it charted accurately, and Hard should be the same chart, just with the 1 pedal charted. That way people who seek a challenge or have a double pedal aren't stuck playing a song that had a lot of potential, but ultimately lacks, and people who only have 1 pedal can still play the same chart just adjusted to fit their needs. Thats as good as it can be without Expert +. Makes sense right?
  • trg007trg007 Your Ever Rocking RBN Forum Guru
    edited November 2009
    GeneralGilliam;3243125 said:
    This is definitely playable with a single stock pedal. I just think that if someone is charting a song with fast double bass, Expert should have it charted accurately, and Hard should be the same chart, just with the 1 pedal charted. That way people who seek a challenge or have a double pedal aren't stuck playing a song that had a lot of potential, but ultimately lacks, and people who only have 1 pedal can still play the same chart just adjusted to fit their needs. Thats as good as it can be without Expert +. Makes sense right?
    No, because they have not been doing it that way since the original Rock Band. You can't just start doing it a different way after two years of games/DLC that do not have double bass charted. Perhaps they will add an Expert+ mode in future versions of RB, but the current standards for Expert charting are not going to change.
  • smeeguelsmeeguel Opening Act
    edited November 2009
    Good rule of thumb for Rock Band and game design in general... always design to the lowest common denominator. In this case, a stock kit with one pedal.

    And I agree that it would be awesome to integrate an OPTIONAL Expert+ mode with all the double kicks charted. Optional being the operative word here ;)

    Here's hoping for RB3 and beyond...
  • GeneralGilliamGeneralGilliam Opening Act
    edited November 2009
    trg007;3243187 said:
    No, because they have not been doing it that way since the original Rock Band. You can't just start doing it a different way after two years of games/DLC that do not have double bass charted. Perhaps they will add an Expert+ mode in future versions of RB, but the current standards for Expert charting are not going to change.
    Well, to each his own:)
  • wesjett08wesjett08 Rising Star
    edited November 2009
    More like 'To the current guidelines' ....


    And besides,Magma wont actually compile the song if the kicks are 'too fast'.
  • trg007trg007 Your Ever Rocking RBN Forum Guru
    edited November 2009
    GeneralGilliam;3243380 said:
    Well, to each his own:)
    Like I said...not if you are planning to actually submit a song to the RBN. It would not pass review if you had double bass authored, unless playtesters agree that it is slow enough to be played on the stock pedal.
  • NoThru22NoThru22 Road Warrior
    edited November 2009
    Watching the Guitar Hero expert plus videos of Painkiller leads me to believe they charted the majority of the double bass in the Rock Band 2 version of Painkiller. Compare the charts and you'll see what I'm talking about.
  • HMXMister_GameHMXMister_Game Harmonix Developer
    edited November 2009
    Author to a single pedal.
  • GeneralGilliamGeneralGilliam Opening Act
    edited November 2009
    NoThru22;3243818 said:
    Watching the Guitar Hero expert plus videos of Painkiller leads me to believe they charted the majority of the double bass in the Rock Band 2 version of Painkiller. Compare the charts and you'll see what I'm talking about.
    Yea, I thought that when I saw it too.
  • EvileOLEvileOL Opening Act
    edited November 2009
    HMXMister_Game;3243898 said:
    Author to a single pedal.
    So author just the on-beat right foot hits and not the left foot?

    I think I will do if so
  • nothingsnothings Unsigned
    edited November 2009
    EvileOL;3244029 said:
    So author just the on-beat right foot hits and not the left foot?
    No, author something that sounds as close as possible to the notes in the song but remains playable on a single pedal. It's like when you're dealing with a song with a ten-tom fill. It doesn't matter if you end up mapping two different toms to the same pad on the kit. In the same way, it doesn't matter if you map both the left and right kick strokes to the same RB foot pedal.

    The issue is just whether it's playable on one pedal. As long as the notes are slow enough (and I guess 16ths at 102bpm sounds slow enough to everyone), it's not a problem.

    (I can only play a single pair of fast kicks at a moderate tempo, I can't sustain them, but that's true on a real kit as well, so.)

    The one thing I don't understand about all this "RB has never done it" and "magma won't let you" is it really seems like that e.g. that one flourish-y double-kick in Limelight (Tom Sawyer?) which seems unplayably fast on a single pedal (with no bounce) to me. (I can play it on a real kit if I position my foot just right and rely on the bounce of the beater.) But I see there are other threads about this, so I guess I just suck. (Not sacarsm.) Certainly I can't imagine anyone could possibly sustain those; does magma distinguish timing of sustained runs of kicks versus a single pair or triple of kicks?
  • wesjett08wesjett08 Rising Star
    edited November 2009
    nothings;3251272 said:


    The one thing I don't understand about all this "RB has never done it" and "magma won't let you" is it really seems like that e.g. that one flourish-y double-kick in Limelight (Tom Sawyer?) which seems unplayably fast on a single pedal (with no bounce) to me. (I can play it on a real kit if I position my foot just right and rely on the bounce of the beater.) But I see there are other threads about this, so I guess I just suck. (Not sacarsm.) Certainly I can't imagine anyone could possibly sustain those; does magma distinguish timing of sustained runs of kicks versus a single pair or triple of kicks?
    Limelight was very much played on a single pedal,Any drummer who can't play that with a single pedal needs to practice ,,, alot, Also,Trust me ... Magma will not compile the song if the kicks are too close.It all depends on the BPM and frequency of the notes.He could try to author the full kicks ... if magme lets it go then he is fine.
  • CCDaDonCCDaDon Headliner
    edited November 2009
    Although Neil Peart DOES use double bass on alot of his songs, none of them have been charted in rock band. And when I say none I mean absolutely zero.
  • XinZXinZ Rising Star
    edited November 2009
    I think you can and should get away with charting both pedals. It would feel extremely off playing only one of those.
  • davidshekdavidshek Community Playtester
    edited November 2009
    wesjett08;3252858 said:
    It all depends on the BPM and frequency of the notes.He could try to author the full kicks ... if magme lets it go then he is fine.
    Whether or not Magma will accept it is not the determining factor. As HMXMister_Game stated, author to a single pedal. Period.
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