Chart Discussion Thread

NoahTheDukeNoahTheDuke Unsigned
edited December 2009 in The Rock Band Network
As the title suggests, this thread is for those of us who aren't in the private beta, but would still like feedback on their work, both for publishing and recreational purposes.

So, to start out, I'm currently charting A Rite Of Passage by Dream Theater for fun and experience. It's gone well, and I've fully charted all four Expert tracks. I'm now moving to Hard, and it's becoming difficult to determine what should and should not be left in. I've got a bunch of Expert and Hard charts handy that I've been referencing all over the place, but I'm still not sure. To find out if it's too much or too little, I've attached a screencap from Reaper of my (above) Expert and (below) Hard bass charts right at the first chorus.

Where the X chart has the R-BOB part, I had originally left it as R-BO on H, but after thinking about it, that seems too hard; but if left out, it feels more Medium than Hard. I don't know. Any help?

Anyone else have questions on the charts they're making?

Noah
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Comments

  • JesusSilencioJesusSilencio Road Warrior
    edited November 2009
    I think charting the BOB part is fine just charting it to a blue note on hard, but I would make it a sustain personally.

    However, I think you thinned out the other notes just a bit too much. I think that if you kept the rest of the notes during that section, just charting the BOB as blue, that would be an acceptable hard chart. Just my opinion though, I haven't really looked at hard charts in a while.

    ~

    I was charting one of my bands songs, and during the intro to this song (the one that starts with a "P") I wasn't really sure how to chart hi-hat part. I'm playing flam accents (flam every 3 hits), but since the hi-hat is sorta half open, most people probably wouldn't even realize it. Would it make more sense to chart it as straight yellows, or should I chart it like this:

    OOOO r
    OOOO r/L
    OOOO l
    OOOO l/R
    OOOO l
    OOOO r
    OOOO r/L
    OOOO r
    OOOO l
    OOOO l/R
    OOOO l
    OOOO r
    OOOO r/L
    OOOO r
    OOOO l
    OOOO l/R
    caps
  • S1ckH4ndsS1ckH4nds YouTube Guru
    edited November 2009
    JesusSilencio, admittedly I'm not the most experienced drummer, but I can't think of any songs where flams on hi-hats have been charted to two pads. Perhaps it would make more sense, if there's a distinct difference in the sound, to author those flams to blue only instead of B+Y, or if not (as you recommend) keep it straight yellows.

    Of course, if I've missed some example where HMX has actually charted it the way you indicate, please feel free to disregard this suggestion entirely. :)
  • JesusSilencioJesusSilencio Road Warrior
    edited November 2009
    S1ckH4nds;3265458 said:
    JesusSilencio, admittedly I'm not the most experienced drummer, but I can't think of any songs where flams on hi-hats have been charted to two pads. Perhaps it would make more sense, if there's a distinct difference in the sound, to author those flams to blue only instead of B+Y, or if not (as you recommend) keep it straight yellows.

    Of course, if I've missed some example where HMX has actually charted it the way you indicate, please feel free to disregard this suggestion entirely. :)
    To be honest, I can't think of a single song in Rock Band that has flams on the hi-hat period, but typically HMX charts flams, regardless of what they're on, to 2 pads. Although, they typically would just chart all the flams as blue+yellow, rather than making it switch between blue and red (I did that to preserve sticking).

    The more I think about it though, the more I think just charting it all to yellow makes more sense. It's not really supposed to be a difficult part, and for someone that doesn't know how to play flam accents, it's a little awkward. Plus, as I said, 99% of people probably wouldn't even notice they're flams.
  • NoahTheDukeNoahTheDuke Unsigned
    edited November 2009
    You could always chart it as a double yellow hit. We've had plenty of those. I think that'd work rather well.

    Noah
  • JesusSilencioJesusSilencio Road Warrior
    edited November 2009
    NoahTheDuke;3265958 said:
    You could always chart it as a double yellow hit. We've had plenty of those. I think that'd work rather well.

    Noah
    As much as I wish flams could be charted like that, that's not how HMX charts them, mainly because (I believe) the RB1 kit isn't sensitive enough to detect two hits that close together.

    Thanks for making this thread by the way. I was going to make something similar, but you beat me to it.
  • NoahTheDukeNoahTheDuke Unsigned
    edited November 2009
    You're welcome! I don't know much about flams, so I'm out of my depth. It sounds like you've got an answer, so woo!

    Noah
  • SwivleSwivle Rising Star
    edited November 2009
    You guys are talking about hitting two hands on the hi-hat at the same time, right? Check out The Number of the Beast drum chart. There's another Iron Maiden song where they chart hi-hat flams, if that's what you'd call them. I think it's The Clairvoyant.
  • JesusSilencioJesusSilencio Road Warrior
    edited November 2009
    Swivle;3266974 said:
    You guys are talking about hitting two hands on the hi-hat at the same time, right? Check out The Number of the Beast drum chart. There's another Iron Maiden song where they chart hi-hat flams, if that's what you'd call them. I think it's The Clairvoyant.
    Ah, you're right (that's what I get for not getting the entire Maiden pack I guess). Interestingly enough, HMX charted the rest of the hi-hat to blue, which I guess would make sense, so that you could keep time with the right hand.

    So then I guess my question would be: Should I chart it like HMX charted it in Claivoyant/NotB, or should I chart it like I said before? On the one hand, following HMX example is typically the best bet, but charting it all on blue and blue+yellow wouldn't allow it to be played the way I naturally play it (unless you cross over I guess).

    (Also, just to clarify real quick, a flam is where two stick hit the drum at almost the same, but one is slightly earlier and, typically, weaker).
  • NoahTheDukeNoahTheDuke Unsigned
    edited November 2009
    The way you originally charted it up thread might work. Try it out in Audition, see if it feels right. For reference, Brainpower features many crosses at fast speeds and doesn't suffer as a fun chart at all from it.

    Noah
  • SwivleSwivle Rising Star
    edited November 2009
    Hm..I think you should move the right hand hi-hat to the blue, because when you play it on the drums, your right hand is always hitting the same thing, never moving. It's your left that's moving. Does that make sense?
  • JesusSilencioJesusSilencio Road Warrior
    edited November 2009
    Swivle;3267547 said:
    Hm..I think you should move the right hand hi-hat to the blue, because when you play it on the drums, your right hand is always hitting the same thing, never moving. It's your left that's moving. Does that make sense?
    Yeah, I think that's what HMX was thinking, but that's not the way I actually play the part. I edited my other post, adding the sticking that I use.

    The thing is, other people may find it more natural to just play it like you describe. It's simpler, but it requires you to keep 16th notes at ~98 bpm on the right hand, which is pretty fast (although I think Clairvoyant is faster). My way is a little more difficult to wrap your head around, but once you get it, it's easier.
  • SwivleSwivle Rising Star
    edited November 2009
    Ah ok, I see it now. Yeah, I think the way you have it in your first post is good. I tend to do similar sticking on really fast right-handed hi-hat runs, like Let There Be Rock, where I add my left hand in to help out my right on the hi-hat, so that should be fine.
  • DavyinaTogaDavyinaToga Road Warrior
    edited November 2009
    @NoahTheDuke: Cool thread, brah. I may have to use this thread at some point soon, until open beta starts (not now, since I can't recall some of the things that I was debating with myself over them).

    On the Hard charting you were asking about, what if you changed it so it was R- OB? That way, the Hard difficulty can still get the feel of that trill-ish lick, while avoiding any fast leaps to that orange from the red, and also getting that strong Blue on the downbeat (which'll help them keep tempo). Don't forget to leave those red sustains in Hard, too. The docs state that you don't have to shorten any lengths until Medium, and those red ones shouldn't impair a Hard player.



    @JesusSilencio: Leave the hi-hat as all yellows. The sound of those half-open HH flams aren't very noticeable to my ears; they come across as simple accents. Kudos for knowing some tricky drum licks, though. I can at least appreciate the effort that went into them, if not the acoustic quality.

    Actually, I agree with Swivle about making them all blue. That way you can move up to yellow at the start of the tom fill and work your way back down.

    Speaking of Swivle...



    Swiv, I hope I don't sound like an ass for this, but I have no idea what you are talking about when you mention NotB. There's plenty of red paradiddles (hitting the same pad twice in quick succession with the same hand), hihat/snare hits, and tom flams, but no hi-hat flams charted for the song that I'm aware of (unless you're talking about the cover version, which I've never played. Then I wouldn't know anyway).

    Also, when you mention using your left hand to help on hi-hat in Let There Be Rock, are you sweeping your left for the snare or avoiding strong beats with your right? I ask because the only ways I can see a left hand effectively being used within hihat lines are if there are occasional 16th notes tossed in between the 8ths (which LTBR doesn't do; it's straight-up 8th-note rock the whole song), or if it's a disco beat with hihat on Red, so your right hand can hit a yellow snare easier in between a constant run of 16ths (a la Everlong).

    OORRRRRRR... do you play on hard and I'm just making a fool of myself trying to understand? (<--Probably that)</font>
  • JesusSilencioJesusSilencio Road Warrior
    edited November 2009
    DavyinaToga;3271649 said:

    @JesusSilencio: Leave the hi-hat as all yellows. The sound of those half-open HH flams aren't very noticeable to my ears; they come across as simple accents. Kudos for knowing some tricky drum licks, though. I can at least appreciate the effort that went into them, if not the acoustic quality.

    Actually, I agree with Swivle about making them all blue. That way you can move up to yellow at the start of the tom fill and work your way back down.

    Yeah, I was originally planning on keeping them all as yellows, but I figured I'd ask and see what people thought. And the part isn't terribly difficult once you know how to do it. I mainly play it like that to keep myself from rushing, and also just to keep myself interested.

    Also, the drum fill actually starts on the snare, so moving the hi-hat to blue like that wouldn't really be necessary.
    Toga said:

    Swiv, I hope I don't sound like an ass for this, but I have no idea what you are talking about when you mention NotB. There's plenty of red paradiddles (hitting the same pad twice in quick succession with the same hand), hihat/snare hits, and tom flams, but no hi-hat flams charted for the song that I'm aware of (unless you're talking about the cover version, which I've never played. Then I wouldn't know anyway).
    I had to double check this just to be sure, but actually, the original version has flams on the hi-hat, whereas the cover doesn't. I'm not sure how you got them confused if you only played the original version.

    Also, just some very minor nitpicks about your terminology. Technically, a "paradiddle" is anything with the sticking RLRR or LRLL, what you describe is just called a "diddle". Also, those double hits on the toms, he's hitting two different toms at the same time, which technically isn't a flam. Not trying to be a dick or anything (sorry if I come off that way), just thought you would like to know :).
    Toga said:

    Also, when you mention using your left hand to help on hi-hat in Let There Be Rock, are you sweeping your left for the snare or avoiding strong beats with your right? I ask because the only ways I can see a left hand effectively being used within hihat lines are if there are occasional 16th notes tossed in between the 8ths (which LTBR doesn't do; it's straight-up 8th-note rock the whole song), or if it's a disco beat with hihat on Red, so your right hand can hit a yellow snare easier in between a constant run of 16ths (a la Everlong).

    OORRRRRRR... do you play on hard and I'm just making a fool of myself trying to understand? (<--Probably that)</font>
    I think he means playing it like this, but I'm not totally sure:

    OOOOOO R
    OOOOOO RL
    OOOOOO R
    OOOOOO L
    OOOOOO R
    OOOOOO RL
    OOOOOO R
    OOOOOO L
    OOOOOO R
    OOOOOO RL
    OOOOOO R
    OOOOOO L
    caps

    That way, his right hand doesn't get really tired.
  • NoThru22NoThru22 Road Warrior
    edited November 2009
    Are we sure there aren't cymbal flams in a few songs like one of the new AFI songs? What's going on when they're alternating blue and yellow and then hitting blue AND yellow in some of these songs and I only hear cymbal like sounds?
  • davidshekdavidshek Community Playtester
    edited November 2009
    Swivle;3267547 said:
    Hm..I think you should move the right hand hi-hat to the blue, because when you play it on the drums, your right hand is always hitting the same thing, never moving. It's your left that's moving. Does that make sense?
    I agree. Author it just like HMX did The Number of the Beast (original version) intro. Blue and yellow, not yellow and red.
  • JesusSilencioJesusSilencio Road Warrior
    edited November 2009
    NoThru22;3271746 said:
    Are we sure there aren't cymbal flams in a few songs like one of the new AFI songs? What's going on when they're alternating blue and yellow and then hitting blue AND yellow in some of these songs and I only hear cymbal like sounds?
    I haven't seen the drum charts to the AFI songs, but they do chart cymbal flams, like in the Iron Maiden songs mentioned previously, and (off the top of my head) there's a flam on the ride during the intro to Jeremy. The reason we're discussing it is because the flams I'm playing sound almost like just plain accents, and they would be sorta awkward to chart anyway.

    Edit: Thanks for the advice David. It does seems like people disagree about the best way to chart it though, so I'm not quite sure what to do.
  • DavyinaTogaDavyinaToga Road Warrior
    edited November 2009
    JesusSilencio;3271744 said:
    I had to double check this just to be sure, but actually, the original version has flams on the hi-hat, whereas the cover doesn't. I'm not sure how you got them confused if you only played the original version.

    Also, just some very minor nitpicks about your terminology. Technically, a "paradiddle" is anything with the sticking RLRR or LRLL, what you describe is just called a "diddle". Also, those double hits on the toms, he's hitting two different toms at the same time, which technically isn't a flam. Not trying to be a dick or anything (sorry if I come off that way), just thought you would like to know :).
    No prob. I know my ears aren't trained well enough for drums to pick out that kind of stuff (nor is my drum terminology great), so I was kind of half going by the charts, too. Being a musician myself, it's safe to assume that if I have a hard time picking up that kind of stuff, Joe Shmoe is gonna have an even harder time.

    Could you point out where in the original the HH flam is at? I'm curious to see (and eventually hear, too) it. I've never noticed one in the original version, and I only consulted the drum chart for the cover right before posting (which looks like red snare hits are the only thing paired with yellow, from what I can deduce).[/ignore]
    JesusSilencio;3271744 said:
    I think he means playing it like this, but I'm not totally sure:

    OOOOOO R
    OOOOOO RL
    OOOOOO R
    OOOOOO L
    OOOOOO R
    OOOOOO RL
    OOOOOO R
    OOOOOO L
    OOOOOO R
    OOOOOO RL
    OOOOOO R
    OOOOOO L
    caps

    That way, his right hand doesn't get really tired.
    I figured it would be something like that, which I can't fathom being able to play without a LOT of training to keep my dominant hand playing everything EXCEPT the beats. *sweat*

    EDIT: IIiiiiiiiiii'm dumb. I forgot about the solo HH section in the intro. For some reason I was starting at the tom fill leading into the first verse.
  • davidshekdavidshek Community Playtester
    edited November 2009
    DavyinaToga;3271808 said:
    Could you point out where in the original the HH flam is at? I'm curious to see (and eventually hear, too) it. I've never noticed one in the original version, and I only consulted the drum chart for the cover right before posting (which looks like red snare hits are the only thing paired with yellow, from what I can deduce).
    In Number of the Beast? The entire drum intro, measures 36-50, section entitled "Gtr Intro A":

    http://rockband.scorehero.com/images/notecharts/contrib/ajanata/drums/numberofthebeast2_drums_expert_blank.png

    Those Yellow/Blues are hi-hat flams. In the cover version, the cover drummer didn't play flams, so that whole intro was authored to just yellows.
  • DavyinaTogaDavyinaToga Road Warrior
    edited November 2009
    davidshek;3271823 said:
    In Number of the Beast? The entire drum intro, measures 36-50, section entitled "Gtr Intro A":

    http://rockband.scorehero.com/images/notecharts/contrib/ajanata/drums/numberofthebeast2_drums_expert_blank.png

    Those Yellow/Blues are hi-hat flams. In the cover version, the cover drummer didn't play flams, so that whole intro was authored to just yellows.
    Yeah, I think I realized that probably at the same time you were posting. I'm ashamed of myself now. Man, if Scorehero had the chart for the original...

    OK, JesusSilencio, I concede. Do it like the man says: blue with yellow HH flams.
  • NoahTheDukeNoahTheDuke Unsigned
    edited November 2009
    My only concern is a transfer from a ride or crash to the hi-hat, or a quick fill back and forth between the snare and hi-hat. If the song doesn't have any of those, sweet.

    Noah
  • nothingsnothings Unsigned
    edited November 2009
    Do HMX Expert drum chartings ever require crossovers? Do they ever require very fast paradiddles or double-strokes? I simply can't play Expert well enough to tell what's going on in the parts I mess up horribly. In my own drum parts I have occasional crossovers and I do a lot of little fill-in 32nd notes or 16th-triplets using one bounced double and I'm not sure what's preferred for those. The creators docs don't really set clear ground rules for what's acceptable to require for drum rudiments.

    (For example, I don't think I can do effective bounced doubles on the RB1 kit, although I can on the RB2, so I'm not sure what's reasonable to chart. I've never played a bounced double on the RB2 kit in any of the songs, but I don't know if that's because they're not charted or simply because I suck too much to even parse out that they'd be appropriate.)
  • davidshekdavidshek Community Playtester
    edited November 2009
    nothings;3272777 said:
    Do HMX Expert drum chartings ever require crossovers? Do they ever require very fast paradiddles or double-strokes?
    Yep, they sure do. Look at some of the fills in Dead on Arrival, particularly that one really tricky one near the end. It's got some pretty complicated sticking in it.

    As for double strokes, that's a yes too. Example: Constant Motion, there's a part where Portnoy is playing double strokes on the ride cymbal with his right hand and hi-hat with his left. HMX authored that to BBYYBBYYBBYY. I suppose you could single stroke that, but it'd be MUCH harder. :)
  • DavyinaTogaDavyinaToga Road Warrior
    edited November 2009
    Bad Reputation is full of double strokes, IF you don't crossover them all. So in a way, they're both required.

    GGRRGGBBGGRRGGBB

    There's several songs that have pairs of fast double-stroking on red snares, much like Opening Band, Icarus, and Rx, the upcoming song from davidshek's band. There's also several examples of other forced double-stroking, in The Feeling (left hand again, mostly so the right hand can ride on greens) and Kids In America (red rolls starting alongside a ride cymbal *shudder*)
  • JesusSilencioJesusSilencio Road Warrior
    edited November 2009
    DavyinaToga;3271843 said:

    OK, JesusSilencio, I concede. Do it like the man says: blue with yellow HH flams.
    Yeah, I think that's what I'll go with. Ironically enough, I will have some trouble playing my own part, but oh well.

    @nothings: The only thing I can think of that HMX (intentionally) doesn't chart every note for are cymbal sustains (they'll typically just chart them as 8th notes, since they're sorta arhythmic). Other than that, drum rudiments are fine. I still play on the RB1 kit, and as long as you aren't playing 32nd note rolls at 140, it's very doable on the RB1 kit.
  • YakalotYakalot Opening Act
    edited November 2009
    davidshek;3272869 said:
    Example: Constant Motion, there's a part where Portnoy is playing double strokes on the ride cymbal with his right hand and hi-hat with his left. HMX authored that to BBYYBBYYBBYY. I suppose you could single stroke that, but it'd be MUCH harder. :)
    But it's so fun single stroking that part!

    back and forth and back and forth
  • edited December 2009
    On the flam question. I charted flam hits on red and yellow with the yellow hitting on the beat and the red hitting 128 note following. I felt this was the most accurrate representation of the hit while pointing out that it is a two stick movement. I let my friend play it and he never missed it. But he flipped out on me when he watched it autoplay and told me how ridiculous it was. It was quite funny when i pointed out to him that the reason he nailed them every time, is because it was natural to do it that way. I say set trends. This has allowed musicians to chart songs to feel natural. Why fight it with rules based on tradition. Just because that is "the way we have always done it" doesn't make it right.

    BTW. I only charted these odd looking flams on expert level. I take the stance of "you asked to play it like an expert here it is"

    My two cents
  • JesusSilencioJesusSilencio Road Warrior
    edited December 2009
    TheGlassIdentityCrisis;3326685 said:
    On the flam question. I charted flam hits on red and yellow with the yellow hitting on the beat and the red hitting 128 note following. I felt this was the most accurrate representation of the hit while pointing out that it is a two stick movement. I let my friend play it and he never missed it. But he flipped out on me when he watched it autoplay and told me how ridiculous it was. It was quite funny when i pointed out to him that the reason he nailed them every time, is because it was natural to do it that way. I say set trends. This has allowed musicians to chart songs to feel natural. Why fight it with rules based on tradition. Just because that is "the way we have always done it" doesn't make it right.

    BTW. I only charted these odd looking flams on expert level. I take the stance of "you asked to play it like an expert here it is"

    My two cents
    Hmm... interesting. One problem I see with doing it that way is it makes you play a certain sticking for the flam (in your case, a left handed flam). I know that, personally, I almost always play right handed flams if given the choice, and making it so I have to play it left handed would sorta screw me up. Honestly, I would have to play a few songs with them charted like that to figure out whether they feel natural or not.

    Also, there's nothing stopping you from playing the flams as actual flams the way HMX has been charting it, as long you play them reasonably closed. I'll almost always play flams if I know that that's what they are.
  • kuiosiklekuiosikle Opening Act
    edited December 2009
    I don't mean to distract from other people's inquiries, but I need some help.

    Now that I'm working on the other difficulties I'm having trouble with what to keep and what not to. Do the hard and medium charts in my first image look as if I'm going about it the right way?


    Also, how would you suggest breaking down the bass in my second image?
    1565 x 259 - 87K
    470 x 81 - 55K
  • JesusSilencioJesusSilencio Road Warrior
    edited December 2009
    kuiosikle;3339019 said:
    I don't mean to distract from other people's inquiries, but I need some help.

    Now that I'm working on the other difficulties I'm having trouble with what to keep and what not to. Do the hard and medium charts in my first image look as if I'm going about it the right way?


    Also, how would you suggest breaking down the bass in my second image?
    Not a problem. I didn't mean to thread jack with my flam question.

    With the first chart, the only changes I would suggest are for the medium chart. That first red I would move up to yellow, and that first yellow I would move up to blue (like how you have it in the hard chart). Also, those red notes (palm mutes?) at the end of the medium chart I would probably move to green, since that's how you have it in the Expert/Hard chart (unless there's a good reason why they're red there). Without hearing the song, I'm not sure about anything else, but by how you charted it on expert it looks good to me.

    For the bass chart, without hearing it, I'm not really sure where the emphasis would be felt, but just by looking at the notes, this is how I would break it down:


    Expert: |-YB-YBYR-YB-YBYR|-YB-YBYR-YB-YBYR|
    Hard: |--B--BYR--B--BYR|--B--BYR--B--BYR|
    Medium: |--B--B-R--B--B-R|--B--B-R--B--B-R|
    Easy: |--B---Y---B---Y-|--B---Y---B---Y-|


    You might wanna get someone else's opinion too though, as I'm not 100% familiar with how charts are broken down for lower difficulties.
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