One thing I had feared with taking the control out of HMX's hands

kingtonyxkingtonyx Unofficial
edited March 2010 in The Rock Band Network
I expected that there would be people out there that would be great at charting and would certainly keep the HMX standard in that department.

My problem lies in the genre area. I see a lot of Rock/Rock or Alternative/Alternative or Metal/Metal flying around and while those tags can be understandable for their bands... when you have access to all of these subgenres, why not use them?

Also, one genre in particular I see being avoided is Emo. Certainly based on what HMX has established as the "Emo" genre for Rock Band, there are a TON of bands floating around in playtesting that could go into this genre but yet I think only one or two have used it.

Nu-Metal is usually avoided in favor of Metal/Alternative as well, which is technically okay but it will look very strange to have bands like Seether floating around in the Metal section.

I understand genres are all a matter of opinion, but when people are going to be able to search for tracks by genre I think it's important to be as specific as possible...

Comments

  • DavyinaTogaDavyinaToga Road Warrior
    edited February 2010
    kingtonyx;3533303 said:
    "Emo" in RB is definitely the new definition. Although I could see some of the more pop-punkish 90's emo bands going under the listing.
    Could you describe both the old and new definitions of "emo?" To me it's always meant "sad whiny punk," so this new definition evades me a bit.
  • afterstasisafterstasis Washed Up
    edited February 2010
    DavyinaToga;3533376 said:
    Could you describe both the old and new definitions of "emo?" To me it's always meant "sad whiny punk," so this new definition evades me a bit.
    emo is a term originally used to describe hardcore punk bands that started popping up in the mid-80's who took a different approach to the style, replacing political lyrics with personal ones and varying the musical style up in favor of crescendos, dissonance, less straightforward rhythms, and more melodic/clean passages dispersed with much more chaotic sections.

    here's a link to a RBforums thread that may help you out.

    now there are still many bands who play in the style of the old emo groups (as well as the screamo scene and indie-emo fusion bands of the 90's), but since the actual substance of the genre didn't catch on like the tight pants and hairstyles those bands are unheard of and have nothing to do with whatever the uninformed population has determined the style has become.
  • kingtonyxkingtonyx Unofficial
    edited February 2010
    DavyinaToga;3533376 said:
    Could you describe both the old and new definitions of "emo?" To me it's always meant "sad whiny punk," so this new definition evades me a bit.
    Emo came out of hardcore punk, then slowly over the years became more and more melodic to the point of pretty much becoming another (incorrectly used) word for pop-punk and power pop.

    'statis might be willing to give a more in-depth description, I dunno.


    Edit: and there you go
  • GeneralGilliamGeneralGilliam Opening Act
    edited February 2010
    As afterstasis said, emo is a term originally used to describe hardcore punk bands that started popping up in the mid-80's who took a different approach to the style, replacing political lyrics with personal ones and varying the musical style up in favor of crescendos, dissonance, less straightforward rhythms, and more melodic/clean passages dispersed with much more chaotic sections.

    Over the years emo has slowly become polluted, and turned from just a style of music into a lifestyle of people who whine all the time, cut themselvs and think they have it worse then everyone else. Most "emo" bands try not to label themselves as emo anymore so they don't have tho be associated with these types of people. Nowadays they tend to choose names like "alternative punk" and "post-hardcore"
  • kingtonyxkingtonyx Unofficial
    edited February 2010
    GeneralGilliam;3533616 said:
    a lifestyle of people who whine all the time, cut themselvs and think they have it worse then everyone else
    this generalization is worse than the masses calling these bands "emo" in the first place
  • afterstasisafterstasis Washed Up
    edited February 2010
    kingtonyx;3533691 said:
    this generalization is worse than the masses calling these bands "emo" in the first place
    agreed.

    also, most "real emo" bands have continued to call themselves emo, though some fans have started using the term "skramz" (boo!).
  • UltimatumUltimatum Washed Up
    edited February 2010
    I like to refer to a lot of Screamo bands as Post-Hardcore as well, especially for people that are new to the genre, even though there are some pretty bad bands now that are legitimately Post-Hardcore, but not Screamo.

    When I first heard the term Skramz, I thought it was a joke or something derogatory, I had no idea that people were pushing it as the new label, it just sounds so ridiculous.
  • afterstasisafterstasis Washed Up
    edited February 2010
    Ultimatum;3533764 said:
    I like to refer to a lot of Screamo bands as Post-Hardcore as well, especially for people that are new to the genre, even though there are some pretty bad bands now that are legitimately Post-Hardcore, but not Screamo.

    When I first heard the term Skramz, I thought it was a joke or something derogatory, I had no idea that people were pushing it as the new label, it just sounds so ridiculous.
    well, many people argue that emo is a subgenre of post-hardcore rather than hardcore despite both arriving at almost the exact same time.
    it makes decent sense and you'd be hard-pressed to find many fans of one and not the other, but whatever.

    and yeah, i'm not keen on the skramz thing either. i think it's mostly a european thing.
  • UltimatumUltimatum Washed Up
    edited February 2010
    I was always under the impression that Emo was a sub-genre of Hardcore Punk and Screamo was a sub-genre of Post-Hardcore.
  • afterstasisafterstasis Washed Up
    edited March 2010
    Ultimatum;3534382 said:
    I was always under the impression that Emo was a sub-genre of Hardcore Punk and Screamo was a sub-genre of Post-Hardcore.
    either could work in my opinion...

    most of the early emo bands actually referred to themselves as post-hardcore since even back then emo was something they were apprehensive about being labeled.
  • UltimatumUltimatum Washed Up
    edited March 2010
    Yeah, I recall a Sick of It All video from back then ("Step Down", I think it was called) that mocked Emo.
  • zero_raverzero_raver Unsigned
    edited March 2010
    For a (I think) good example of what would originally have been considered Emo I would point anyone in the direction of Minor Threat (if I remember correctly they are also considered the ones that popularized "straight edge") and to a lesser extent the subsequent Fugazi.

    Please do correct me if I'm wrong as I've done little research into the topic because I find genres to be a way to discount or love any group before people listen to them, and I wasn't around when either band started, but I did do some looking into both groups when one of my older friends told me that both groups were Emo.
  • ThatAuthoringGroupThatAuthoringGroup Numero Uno Super **** Fanboy #1
    edited March 2010
    GeneralGilliam;3533616 said:


    Over the years emo has slowly become polluted, and turned from just a style of music into a lifestyle of people who whine all the time, cut themselvs and think they have it worse then everyone else.

    That to me sounds like the 'goth'/ marilyn manson kids more than emo to me.

    Which of course the above that I posted is a broad generalization as well, but my point still remains.

    I've never thought of emo kids as the cutty cutty, woe is me type.
  • afterstasisafterstasis Washed Up
    edited March 2010
    Ultimatum;3534675 said:
    Yeah, I recall a Sick of It All video from back then ("Step Down", I think it was called) that mocked Emo.
    yeah, that was the video where they poke fun at all the hardcore dance-styles, right?
    through the mid-late 90's a pretty large portion of the emo fanbase did indeed dress pretty nerdy.
    i always did hate sick of it all though. :p
    zero_raver;3534850 said:
    For a (I think) good example of what would originally have been considered Emo I would point anyone in the direction of Minor Threat (if I remember correctly they are also considered the ones that popularized "straight edge") and to a lesser extent the subsequent Fugazi.
    fugazi's more of a straight-up post-hardcore band (one of the earliest) and although minor threat helped open the door for emo with some of their later songs they're still a total hardcore punk band in sound.
    minor threat is indeed the band that got the vast majority of the straightedge notice rolling though quite a few other lesser known DC bands were in on it.

    i totally didn't mean to turn tony's thread into another emo education service. :o
  • edited March 2010
    noble;3534875 said:
    That to me sounds like the 'goth'/ marilyn manson kids more than emo to me.
    I don't know which world you live in but in my world emo kids cut themselves while goth kids flip people off..
  • ThatAuthoringGroupThatAuthoringGroup Numero Uno Super **** Fanboy #1
    edited March 2010
    DoILookFatInThese;3535212 said:
    I don't know which world you live in but in my world emo kids cut themselves while goth kids flip people off..
    It's called the late 90's early 2000's.

    It was the marilyn manson 'goth' kids that always went around carving up their chests and arms while wearing the dark makeup and spooky spooky vibe.

    So if I'm reading this right then emo kids are the pop version of goth kids?

    Kind of how blink 182 and sum 41 are the pop version of punk?
  • afterstasisafterstasis Washed Up
    edited March 2010
    noble;3535396 said:

    So if I'm reading this right then emo kids are the pop version of goth kids?

    Kind of how blink 182 and sum 41 are the pop version of punk?
    the only thing emo has to do with goth is that both were birthed from punk rock subgenres.

    punk -> post-punk -> goth
    punk -> hardcore punk -> emo
  • ThatAuthoringGroupThatAuthoringGroup Numero Uno Super **** Fanboy #1
    edited March 2010
    afterstasis;3535405 said:
    the only thing emo has to do with goth is that both were birthed from punk rock subgenres.

    punk -> post-punk -> goth
    punk -> hardcore punk -> emo


    I'm not talking about the music itself I'm talking about the fans.

    What I described as the goth kids(fans) of the late 90's early 2000's) seems to have morphed into the emo kids(fans) of today.

    They went from being dark, depressed, pissed off, and cutting themselves(goth kids), to just being depressed and cutting themselves(emo kids).

    At least from the info I'm getting here.

    I live in a VERY small town so the only kids we have here are the ones that decide to go drinking, or go cow tipping ;)
  • afterstasisafterstasis Washed Up
    edited March 2010
    noble;3535413 said:
    I'm not talking about the music itself I'm talking about the fans.
    ah, i honestly have no idea what those people are doing...

    the folks i know who are into the hardcore punk subgenre are typically fairly average people aside from taste in music... definitely not any more emotionally torn than most people in their 20's-30's.
  • T-HybridT-Hybrid Washed Up
    edited March 2010
    kingtonyx;3532876 said:
    My problem lies in the genre area. I see a lot of Rock/Rock or Alternative/Alternative or Metal/Metal flying around and while those tags can be understandable for their bands... when you have access to all of these subgenres, why not use them?
    I'm not familiar with the charting process...but wouldn't the charters be asking the bands what they'd like to be sorting under? Because to me, this almost sounds like your arguing that the bands themselves don't know what they are.
  • kingtonyxkingtonyx Unofficial
    edited March 2010
    T-Hybrid;3535720 said:
    I'm not familiar with the charting process...but wouldn't the charters be asking the bands what they'd like to be sorting under? Because to me, this almost sounds like your arguing that the bands themselves don't know what they are.
    This mostly happens I noticed with the bigger name songs where you're dealing with the label.

    Although, there's actually an artist who has songs being charted by two different groups. One charting group listed the songs as "Alternative" while the other went with "Indie Rock" so it could be any number of things deciding who gets what genre...
  • T-HybridT-Hybrid Washed Up
    edited March 2010
    kingtonyx;3535735 said:
    This mostly happens I noticed with the bigger name songs where you're dealing with the label.
    Well, in a way it makes sense. From the broader perspective, music junkies that know the differences in the various subgenres will likely already know enough about the band to seek it out based on the overarching genre.

    Meanwhile, somebody who isn't as familiar will see it as being WAY too specific...thus being overwhelmed with choices that they just can't differentiate between.
  • sieesiee Road Warrior
    edited March 2010
    You can start worrying if Sunny Day Real Estate isn't labeled as Emo.
  • UltimatumUltimatum Washed Up
    edited March 2010
    afterstasis;3534885 said:
    yeah, that was the video where they poke fun at all the hardcore dance-styles, right?
    through the mid-late 90's a pretty large portion of the emo fanbase did indeed dress pretty nerdy.
    i always did hate sick of it all though. :p
    Yeah, that would be the one.

    I liked their early stuff, they started to get a little too close to "Tough Guy" HC toward the later end of their career though.
  • afterstasisafterstasis Washed Up
    edited March 2010
    T-Hybrid;3535720 said:
    I'm not familiar with the charting process...but wouldn't the charters be asking the bands what they'd like to be sorting under?
    this is something i've wondered as well since i worry that the stuff i'm submitting may not be immediately recognizable as black metal to someone who isn't terribly familiar with the genre.

    i'm not going to kick and scream if i end up thrown under something else, but i can't really imagine it anywhere else.
  • T-HybridT-Hybrid Washed Up
    edited March 2010
    I'm a little confused by that statement. Are you submitting another artists songs that you've charted...or are you charting your own?
  • MilitreeMilitree Unsigned
    edited March 2010
    siee;3535783 said:
    You can start worrying if Sunny Day Real Estate isn't labeled as Emo.
    It seems silly but this is something I'm worried about. I would hate to see the (arguably) gold standard of later emo music called alternative or something. I could seriously see the forums saying that Rites of Spring or any similar band doesn't sound like emo music (Not a knock at them, the community is nothing short of excellent). Maybe it's cause emo is my favorte genre next to pop punk, and I hate to see both of those genres dragged through the mud and lose it's original meaning.

    I did say it earlier though, most emo and "skramz" (totally forgot about that term) bands would probably just rather be labeled hardcore punk anyway. It's a fitting genre and at that point you'd be splitting hairs.
  • afterstasisafterstasis Washed Up
    edited March 2010
    T-Hybrid;3536994 said:
    I'm a little confused by that statement. Are you submitting another artists songs that you've charted...or are you charting your own?
    i'm submitting my songs to an authoring group soon...
    i'm a bit worried that unless i'm allowed to choose the genre my songs could end up just about anywhere.
  • T-HybridT-Hybrid Washed Up
    edited March 2010
    afterstasis;3537046 said:
    i'm a bit worried that unless i'm allowed to choose the genre my songs could end up just about anywhere.
    Isn't the genre part of the metadata that the authors put together? What I would do is talk with whoever is authoring your songs and make it clear that you would like to be classified in a specific genre.

    The way I understand it, they're working for you...right? So make sure they know what metadata you want to have with your tracks and make sure they follow through with it.

    I don't think that type of stuff has to be peer reviewed. If you wanted to take a black metal song and have it labeled pop that's your perrogative as the song writer I would think.
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