Annoyed with negative comments towards authors/testers

kingtonyxkingtonyx Unofficial
edited March 2010 in The Rock Band Network
"Why didn't they catch this?"

"How could they let this pass?!?"

"Why don't they do a better job?!?"

Why don't YOU pay and come test songs yourselves then? Or maybe make your own authoring studio since you could do so much better?

Or how about you stop being ungrateful towards all of the people who make this possible... the authors who spend hundreds of man hours creating the tracks and the people WHO PAID to review the tracks so you could even have all of these new songs at all.

Honestly it's disappointing.

Comments

  • mogwaimonmogwaimon Opening Act
    edited March 2010
    SequenceF;3569282 said:
    *I* am spending *MY* money to purchase these songs, so they had dang well better be PERFECT, is this not clear?

    Some tracks are amazing - Top Back, the Coulton stuff, etc, but some are so bad that I face palm.

    Tonight I downloaded Semi Charmed Life and it was absolute garbage - low level muddy audio, a horrible echo and sloppy vocal charting.

    I would have gladly downloaded the demo first, but

    A) It's not like I've never heard the song before, considering it used to be on the radio 17 times a day
    B) RBN lags like a *censored* *censored* *censored* and it takes a *censored* two *censored* minutes to even preview a song. *CENSORED*!!!
    C) Playtesters ARE supposed to catch this stuff. IT'S KIND OF THE POINT OF BEING A PLAYTESTER, NO?

    Yes, I would love to be a playester except that requires a paid membership to some Xbox Live thing or another and please excuse me all to bits if I'd rather not PAY to beta test someone else's product and then pay AGAIN to download it so that someone ELSE can profit.

    If the authors are going to run a profitable business and actually attract big name labels, they need to straighten up and fly right and quite producing Frets on Fire hobby level garbage.

    We are not your friends or your neighbors or some understanding chum with infinite levels of patience - We are consumers and if they want nothing more than a pat on the back and a 'good job', they can hustle right on back to Scorehero.

    This goes double for the playtesters that fast track any well known song while asleep at the wheel.

    The serious authors read our complaints
    To be fair, you should have tried the demo out no matter the circumstances, that's why that feature is there. You subscribe to 'customer is always right'...well, I also subscribe to 'buyer beware'. Excuses or no, you should ALWAYS try before you buy if you can.

    As for the audio being off on the song, that might be due to your sound system, or the playtester's sound systems. Maybe some playtesters don't have a kicking sound system. Maybe some playtesters didn't think the audio was muddy or low level. I'm sure if there are really that many issues with the track Harmonix would allow the authors to upload a fixed version that can be downloaded by people who purchased the song free of charge.

    Finally, it isn't Harmonix's fault that XNA/XBL membership cost so much. That rests squarely on Microsoft's shoulders.


    Now, to Tonyx....rest assured these are the vocal minority. I myself enjoy RBN tracks just fine and don't think they're low quality or anything, and on another forum I go to that talks of Rock Band sometimes no one has complained about the quality of RBN charts so far
  • KariodudeKariodude Road Warrior
    edited March 2010
    I just ignore the people that complain about playtesters. They don't wanna fork over the cash to test stuff, they don't have the right to insult the people that do. They can just enjoy getting what we give them.
  • ThunderCurlsThunderCurls Road Warrior
    edited March 2010
    People are allowed to be unhappy if something does not satisfy them, end of story. It's up to the authors to listen to the complaints and fix the problems, we don't need you throwing a tantrum.
  • sieesiee Road Warrior
    edited March 2010
    ThunderCurls;3569295 said:
    People are allowed to be unhappy if something does not satisfy them, end of story. It's up to the authors to listen to the complaints and fix the problems, we don't need you throwing a tantrum.
    This.
    It happens with every product in every business.
  • SequenceFSequenceF Opening Act
    edited March 2010
    mogwaimon;3569288 said:
    To be fair, you should have tried the demo out no matter the circumstances, that's why that feature is there. You subscribe to 'customer is always right'...well, I also subscribe to 'buyer beware'. Excuses or no, you should ALWAYS try before you buy if you can.

    As for the audio being off on the song, that might be due to your sound system, or the playtester's sound systems. Maybe some playtesters don't have a kicking sound system. Maybe some playtesters didn't think the audio was muddy or low level. I'm sure if there are really that many issues with the track Harmonix would allow the authors to upload a fixed version that can be downloaded by people who purchased the song free of charge.

    Finally, it isn't Harmonix's fault that XNA/XBL membership cost so much. That rests squarely on Microsoft's shoulders.


    Now, to Tonyx....rest assured these are the vocal minority. I myself enjoy RBN tracks just fine and don't think they're low quality or anything, and on another forum I go to that talks of Rock Band sometimes no one has complained about the quality of RBN charts so far
    I'm a big fan of 'buyer beware', but it doesn't apply in this instance - I'm having some very bad issues with the RBN store lagging so bad when I download a preview that I end up purchasing songs via the Xbox Live webpage, that has neither previews nor demos. Aside from that, you are absolutely correct in stating that a potential buyer should 'sample the wares'.

    Sadly, I could not find a youtube video at the time either and even still, Youtube is a terrible indicator of sound quality.

    Also, the RBN previews are not always representative of the actual sound quality. The preview for Top Back is a bit muffled, but the song is crystal clear when I play it (this is a lesser annoyance). It's odd because it doesn't seem like the preview would be a separate file (and I have no idea whether it is or not).

    I also agree with Microsoft's XNA fee - for the amazing potential it has, the price is EXTREMELY fair (in fact, my opinion is that it's too low) but it just wouldn't serve enough of a purpose for me.

    If I was using it for the sole purpose of pre-testing RBN song quality, I would have to find between 50 and 100 songs that I would *not* want to purchase before the XNA membership even pays for itself.

    So while I agree with everything that's been said, there are some extenuating circumstance as well.
  • Starfleet_RamboStarfleet_Rambo Headliner
    edited March 2010
    I gotta go with ThunderCurls on this. Thankfully, none of my purchased RBN tunes are low quality. :D

    I appreciate the work authors/testers put in, but if something is wrong, then CONSUMERS have every right to voice their displeasure.
  • ZmsZms Opening Act
    edited March 2010
    mogwaimon;3569288 said:
    To be fair, you should have tried the demo out no matter the circumstances,
    Sure, but the issue in question remains, whether he bought it or not.
  • cherokeesamcherokeesam Washed Up
    edited March 2010
    SequenceF;3569282 said:
    *I* am spending *MY* money to purchase these songs, so they had dang well better be PERFECT, is this not clear?
    No, they don't need to be "perfect." HMX and Neversoft don't make "perfect" charts week to week (read the forum comments after any DLC drops and you'll see plenty of people doing the same kind of complaining), and those guys are the pros. And charting is an entirely subjective science -- what *you* deem as a perfect/imperfect chart isn't necessarily what everyone else thinks.

    Tonight I downloaded Semi Charmed Life and it was absolute garbage - low level muddy audio, a horrible echo and sloppy vocal charting.



    I would have gladly downloaded the demo first, but

    A) It's not like I've never heard the song before, considering it used to be on the radio 17 times a day
    B) RBN lags like a *censored* *censored* *censored* and it takes a *censored* two *censored* minutes to even preview a song. *CENSORED*!!!
    C) Playtesters ARE supposed to catch this stuff. IT'S KIND OF THE POINT OF BEING A PLAYTESTER, NO?
    Keep in mind that the 3EB stuff is recent re-records. It is *not* going to sound like what you've heard on the radio, at all. So, to everyone dogpiling on Wavegroup (who didn't seem to have a problem with the audio for Bif Naked or Becca Neun), you might want to take into consideration that shoddy audio might be on 3EB's part.
    Yes, I would love to be a playester except that requires a paid membership to some Xbox Live thing or another and please excuse me all to bits if I'd rather not PAY to beta test someone else's product and then pay AGAIN to download it so that someone ELSE can profit.
    Except you're paying MICROSOFT for an XNA membership, *not* HMX or any recording artist/label. You are not getting double-billed for product.

    And for those people scared away by the membership costs: pay no attention to the "OMG 100 BUCKS" price tag that everyone keeps yakking about. 100 bucks gets you an ANNUAL membership; but you can get a 4-month subscription for half that price.

    But yes, I understand why people are wary of paying membership fees for review/playtesting. I *hope* that HMX goes to Microsoft and cuts some kind of deal with them to lower (or remove) the fee, since this isn't *technically* "peer review." (The Creators Club was designed with the idea of letting game designers review other gamemakers' designs... but what we're doing is essentially *end-users* reviewing game design. That needs to be addressed to Microsoft. Or maybe HMX could purchase free trial memberships for those that they approve as playtesters....a lot of organizations/businesses can adopt these free trial memberships.)
    The serious authors read our complaints
    But, as always, there's a constructive way to do this, and an unconstructive way to do this. And I'm pretty sure the authors give a lot more weight to the comments/suggestions/critiques in the *Creators' Club* forum than they do to the Monday-morning quarterbacks on *this* forum who b*itch about the final product, after it's already been released. (All the more reason to join the Creators Club.)
  • NoThru22NoThru22 Road Warrior
    edited March 2010
    cherokeesam;3569459 said:
    Keep in mind that the 3EB stuff is recent re-records. It is *not* going to sound like what you've heard on the radio, at all. So, to everyone dogpiling on Wavegroup (who didn't seem to have a problem with the audio for Bif Naked or Becca Neun), you might want to take into consideration that shoddy audio might be on 3EB's part.
    No, no, no, no!!! The re-record has NOTHING to do with it. It's in the MIXING which has nothing to do with the re-record (see how I repeated myself to ground it in?) This same re-record was used in Guitar Hero Van Halen and it sounded great, because it was mixed by professionals.

    A peer reviewer even said that he gave Little Black Backpack a negative review because of the sound mix, but the song got pushed through anyway and I got duped into buying it.

    (And it's spelled shoddy by the way. Shotty is a nickname for a shotgun. :D )
  • edited March 2010
    Starfleet_Rambo;3569399 said:
    I appreciate the work authors/testers put in, but if something is wrong, then CONSUMERS have every right to voice their displeasure.
    And the authors have every right to completely ignore the consumers if their displeasure is voiced in an uncivil or nonconstructive manner. It's the authors' responsibility to do the best job they can and deliver a quality product, but it's the consumers' responsibility as civilized human beings to phrase their complaints in a way that doesn't utilize the word 'sucks', but actually explains their displeasure in a civil and constructive way.

    There's also always the possibility that the consumer's demands of the product are unreasonable, because despite the popular phrase, the customer really isn't always right, and customers who are unreasonable and overly pushy on a regular basis actually hurt your business if you still try to meet their unreasonable demands in order to keep them on as customers. Not saying that this is the case here, but generally speaking, any business should differentiate between good and bad customers.
  • Deeznutzs27Deeznutzs27 Road Warrior
    edited March 2010
    NoThru22;3569463 said:
    No, no, no, no!!! The re-record has NOTHING to do with it. It's in the MIXING which has nothing to do with the re-record (see how I repeated myself to ground it in?) This same re-record was used in Guitar Hero Van Halen and it sounded great, because it was mixed by professionals.

    A peer reviewer even said that he gave Little Black Backpack a negative review because of the sound mix, but the song got pushed through anyway and I got duped into buying it.

    (And it's spelled shoddy by the way. Shotty is a nickname for a shotgun. :D )
    I had an issue with "Little Black Backpack" in playtesting with the low vocals. Its odd as the mix was better in "Kick some ass" done by them as well. Same thing goes for the other 3EB songs in playtesting as they do sound better IMO..

    This happens on regular DLC too so I am not getting all bent out of shape on it as I just turn the sound up. I think the complainers need to chill, if you are unhappy then become a tester and do something about it. If you dont want to fork over the cash then use the "Sample Song" to test. If you "cant wait" or "having an issue with samples" well thats on you because if you want to be safe then wait till its in the store with working links. Plain and Simple.
  • cherokeesamcherokeesam Washed Up
    edited March 2010
    NoThru22;3569463 said:
    (And it's spelled shoddy by the way. Shotty is a nickname for a shotgun. :D )
    Thanks for correcting me for spelling "shoddy" as "shoddy" (you might want to read more carefully next time, Mr. Human Spellcheck....:cool: )

    Anyho....just played the Semi-Charmed Life demo on my game, and the sound works just fine when I'm playing guitar or bass. I don't play vocals, so I can't attest for any difference there, but I'm 100% sure the vocal track would only be *louder* on the mic.
  • NoThru22NoThru22 Road Warrior
    edited March 2010
    cherokeesam;3569487 said:
    Thanks for correcting me for spelling "shoddy" as "shoddy" (you might want to read more carefully next time, Mr. Human Spellcheck....:cool: )

    Anyho....just played the Semi-Charmed Life demo on my game, and the sound works just fine when I'm playing guitar or bass. I don't play vocals, so I can't attest for any difference there, but I'm 100% sure the vocal track would only be *louder* on the mic.
    I've obviously gone insane about shotty because I swear I saw it, but it's quoted in my post so I damned myself!

    Do you play with Dolby Digital or not?
  • T-HybridT-Hybrid Washed Up
    edited March 2010
    ElMarshal;3569253 said:
    Some bad logic.

    Paying to test songs we paid for.
    The idea isn't to test the song you already bought. The idea is that if you think the testers are doing a poor job than join up and do your part to improve.

    Essentially: "Poop or get off the pot."
  • barnabyjones786barnabyjones786 Opening Act
    edited March 2010
    i just say be happy for whats on there
    they all worked hard and i appretiate that

    Thank You all Authors/Testers for bring us the music to RBN
  • elfreakoelfreako Road Warrior
    edited March 2010
    As an outsider I've found these threads pretty entertaining, but in the end it seems pretty clear what need to happen. Complainers need to learn some manners when they provide feedback, and testers need not to take everything so personally and perhaps raise the bar when it comes to RBN tracks quality.

    This is a completly new concept here, of course it won't be perfect and it will require adjustments, for both the production and the buyer's expectations.

    In other words, take a chill pill.
  • cherokeesamcherokeesam Washed Up
    edited March 2010
    NoThru22;3569523 said:

    Do you play with Dolby Digital or not?
    No, I don't.
    That might be part of the differences people are noticing....might sound crappy on high-end stereos. Sounds just fine on the garden-variety speakers I've got, though. ;)
  • T-HybridT-Hybrid Washed Up
    edited March 2010
    ThunderCurls;3569295 said:
    People are allowed to be unhappy if something does not satisfy them, end of story. It's up to the authors to listen to the complaints and fix the problems, we don't need you throwing a tantrum.
    The authors/testers don't need customers throwing tantrums either...which seems to be the popular way to voice even the most minor issue with a product around these parts.
  • Dragonheart1991Dragonheart1991 Road Warrior
    edited March 2010
    HMX got negative replies to certain DLC. So i won't be suprised if i saw the Authors get flamed.

    If someone lands My Chemical Romance, and wants to chart their songs, there'll always be one troll saying...

    "omg why get emo *****es, ***"

    "you suck!"

    (insert other trolling comment attacking band here)
  • NoThru22NoThru22 Road Warrior
    edited March 2010
    It sounds questionable here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqIeysh--KA), which I know is just youtube, but it sounds like the same mixing problems I have with Little Black Backpack. I will play the demo when I get home tonight and I will also try it with Dolby Digital off (but that shouldn't change the levels of the vocal mix so drastically, especially compared to the fact that every other song sounds fine.) I do not brag about the cost of my sound system because audiophiles with $100,000 systems would laugh at me, but it is very expensive compared to an average home theater setup.
  • T-HybridT-Hybrid Washed Up
    edited March 2010
    Overall the vocal volume sounded good, there were a few spots when suddenly the guitar got VERY loud and then went back to normal....and I'm listening on crappy headphones.
  • NoThru22NoThru22 Road Warrior
    edited March 2010
    Wavegroup just replied on their page: "We just learned about this potential issue, and are chasing down the problem. All of our tunes were extensively tested before release, so we looking into other potential causes. We'll let you know what we find ASAP."
  • Deeznutzs27Deeznutzs27 Road Warrior
    edited March 2010
    NoThru22;3569607 said:
    Wavegroup just replied on their page: "We just learned about this potential issue, and are chasing down the problem. All of our tunes were extensively tested before release, so we looking into other potential causes. We'll let you know what we find ASAP."
    Thats great they are listening but doesnt really mean anything is going to be done... HMX is still looking into many issues including Last Resort so I am not holding my breath.
  • aggiesrul8aggiesrul8 Road Warrior
    edited March 2010
    All you can ever do in situations like this is vote with your wallet.... You personally may not be able to create changes, but collectively speaking, businesses learn and certain 'know' when folks aren't buying their product....
  • kingtonyxkingtonyx Unofficial
    edited March 2010
    Yeah, I'm not saying that there aren't problems or that people don't have the right to point them out. I mean if I bought something and it was messed up I'd be unhappy too.

    I'm just saying be cool about it.
  • White_PawZWhite_PawZ Road Warrior
    edited March 2010
    I think it's a variety of issues when talking about vocals:

    1) Some people are hearing a different sounding vocal (re-record after all) of a popular radio song they know and since it sounds a little different, it seems "off" to them and they attribute it to the mix

    2) Different sound systems output the sound differently. I know that in Rb2, one of my favorite oldies but goodies "Spirit in the Sky" seemed like Norman Greenbaum was whispering the song through my speakers. Once I turned up the center speaker, the vocals were better. Ditto for the McCartney tracks, which seemed really quiet (to me anyway). It happens sometimes due to how your system outputs the sound.

    3) Overall you are playing the game on too low of a volume. Are your ears bleeding? Windows rattling? Then it's TOO LOW! (just kidding of course). But seriously if you play drums, for example, they tend to drown out the rest of the tracks due to all the noise they make right in front of you (especially the way some people play the drums). It is always a balance between turning it up loud enough and not getting into trouble if you're in an apartment.

    Just a few possible reasons....
  • ThatAuthoringGroupThatAuthoringGroup Numero Uno Super **** Fanboy #1
    edited March 2010
    I didn't test the songs in question that have funky vox volumes, nor have I purchased them yet so I can't comment on that.

    What I would like to comment on is the I don't know what I'd even call it from some people.

    Now I realize that yes everyone is paying money for these tracks.

    If they don't come out the way you like it, then as a consumer it is well in your rights to complain about it.

    The squeaky wheel gets the oil and all that.

    However I come into this thinking that here is a group of songs that we might NEVER have gotten if it wasnt for the RBN. I don't expect these songs to be the same quality as a HMX authored track. The guys and gals at HMX have been doing this for almost ten years now, and the authors on RBN are not only new to this, but the it isn't the same quality of tech and programs that HMX uses.

    Now the above isn't me saying well we all suck, and the equipment we have sucks so just deal with it. It most assuredly is not.

    Do you remember guitar hero 1?

    Great game, but it had issues. The HO/PO system was borked, all cover songs for the most part, no vox or drums, no dlc.

    Look how far they've come since then.

    What I'm saying is RBN is Gh1 in a sense. We are all new to this.

    It will get better, WE will get better, but to expect a fledgling service with new tech and programmers to be just as good as a product from a company that has been doing this for almost a decade is just insane.

    I for one am just happy to get the songs and they are of at least as good a quality as they are.

    I remember the old GH2 hax songs. Look how far we've come since then.

    It will get better.

    Promise.
  • kingtonyxkingtonyx Unofficial
    edited March 2010
    Yeah, I mean as a vocalist I definitely would have caught a low vocal track. Things sounded great for 3EB, ADTR, etc on my end. If anything ADTR was a bit on the loud side.
  • White_PawZWhite_PawZ Road Warrior
    edited March 2010
    I think overall the RBN is pretty good.

    MOST people would never know the difference between RBN and HMX tracks.

    People who spend a lot of time on these forums tend to be extra-sensitive to small glitches/issues that 90% of RB gamers would never notice.
  • edited March 2010
    I got to help with playtesting during the beta. So I thought I'd offer my take.

    It is not as easy as it looks reviewing a song. There are so many things to look at that people take for granted... audio levels, charting, charting on difficulties that you don't play/care about. Phrasing of vocals. Heck, even something as mundane as "did you spell the lyrics right" or "do the characters animate properly."

    And even if you do catch something and point it out, it is hard to follow up and see if that problem gets fixed in version 2 or 3 or 4 of the playtest.

    For a pretty in-depth one time review, you are likely playing through the same song for an hour. If the song has to be re-submitted for bug fixing, that's another hour for the next version. And consider there are songs that have been submitted/resubmitted 4 or 5 times to get all the kinks out. That's a lot of playtesting time for ONE person for ONE song. Consider that there are dozens of songs in playtesting at any given time. Also consider that many of these songs are new and unknown to a mass audience, which is a barrier to testing in itself.

    Don't get me wrong, I have seen a few things slip though playtesting that I wish didn't. But in defense of testing, it is harder than you think, and mostly thankless because people take it for granted until something goes bad.
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