just discovered rbn

spazmcnastyspazmcnasty Unsigned
edited March 2010 in The Rock Band Network
WOW, man i have been away from the forums a while and thought i would pop in and BOOM there's this crazy awesome new thing called RBN. What is this i ask myself. Start reading about all the great songs on there and counting the money in my wallet so i can go start downloading them. Then this great sadness hits me after i click on a few songs....they are only on xbox 360. Guess what i do not own. So as a ps3 owner i am deeply depressed that the songs we get from the RBN are the songs that are "stand outs" which i guess that means the ones that sell the best. So since xbox360 has like 300~ more songs than ps3 now i just dont know what to do, i kinda feel cheated as a consumer here... is RB3 gonna be just on the xbox?

Comments

  • overdriveguitarmanoverdriveguitarman The Walrus
    edited March 2010
    spazmcnasty;3571058 said:
    is RB3 gonna be just on the xbox?
    haha

    okay man, this isn't Harmonix's fault. The Xbox 360 has a certain "user-created" thing (called XNA?) that neither PS3 or Wii have.
  • spazmcnastyspazmcnasty Unsigned
    edited March 2010
    overdriveguitarman;3571082 said:
    haha

    okay man, this isn't Harmonix's fault. The Xbox 360 has a certain "user-created" thing (called XNA?) that neither PS3 or Wii have.
    I like the idea here dont get me wrong but i guess im just confused on why these songs cant be put on the psn store as well rather than ps3 users just getting the choice ones... now i have to pray there are a bunch of people out there that like kmfdm so i can download it on my ps3.

    for sure making xbox some more money tho which is a good thing i guess cause i hear they need it to make a console that doesnt red ring :D
  • Catch-22Catch-22 Road Warrior
    edited March 2010
    spazmcnasty;3571139 said:
    I like the idea here dont get me wrong but i guess im just confused on why these songs cant be put on the psn store as well rather than ps3 users just getting the choice ones... now i have to pray there are a bunch of people out there that like kmfdm so i can download it on my ps3.

    for sure making xbox some more money tho which is a good thing i guess cause i hear they need it to make a console that doesnt red ring :D
    At the very minimum each song as to be retested for the PS3 which is expensive and a cost to HMX. I also suspect they have to seek permission from the authors, bands, and labels to distribute the content on other platforms. So it's not as easy as releasing the songs on the PS3 if HMX can't recoup their investment what's the point for them?
  • spazmcnastyspazmcnasty Unsigned
    edited March 2010
    Catch-22;3571153 said:
    At the very minimum each song as to be retested for the PS3 which is expensive and a cost to HMX. I also suspect they have to seek permission from the authors, bands, and labels to distribute the content on other platforms. So it's not as easy as releasing the songs on the PS3 if HMX can't recoup their investment what's the point for them?
    I'm sure there is a smarter way to do this then.
    other wise i feel myself asking again if rb3 is gonna be on the xbox 360 only.

    im just gonna go crawl back in my hole with out my tool or kmfdm for my rb on my ps3 and wait for rise of the 6 string to come out .... or diablo 3 which ever comes first :)
  • thefncrowthefncrow Opening Act
    edited March 2010
    spazmcnasty;3571139 said:
    I like the idea here dont get me wrong but i guess im just confused on why these songs cant be put on the psn store as well rather than ps3 users just getting the choice ones... now i have to pray there are a bunch of people out there that like kmfdm so i can download it on my ps3.
    It's pretty simple. The XNA framework allows users to upload their stuff on their own. The songs are quarantined when they first go up, and go through a process of playtesting and peer review, and when they complete those processes, automatically become available from the store. Microsoft tracks those purchases and cuts checks to the author for their share of the sales of the tracks. What you'll notice about this process is that at no point did I ever mention Harmonix. When the system is working right, Harmonix has to do very, very little to facilitate the process of getting an RBN track out for sale.

    This is all based around a community framework that Sony and Nintendo lack. Sony and Nintendo instead only have the standard entry method for DLC, which is for the stuff to come in through the game developer, be tested in the console maker's certification process, and process payments back to the game developer. Without effort on the part of Harmonix for every track, having those tracks show up on Wii and PS3 is impossible.

    Harmonix has decided to port select tracks because, frankly, that level of work, plus the work of tracking the sales for each RBN song and cutting checks to authors as appropriate, involves a direct cost to Harmonix. If they're porting a song that's going to sell 40,000 copies, they're clearly going to make enough money back to pay for the small overhead costs of porting the song, but that's probably not the case if the song sells 40 copies.

    Because there will be a fixed cost for porting every track, Harmonix is likely to port only the songs which will, at the least, cover that fixed cost. If you want more to be ported, you should be pushing Sony and Nintendo to implement community/independent development programs like XNA, so that RBN songs can come to those platforms without the intervention of Harmonix.
  • spazmcnastyspazmcnasty Unsigned
    edited March 2010
    thank you sir that is the post i needed.
  • michal1980michal1980 Unsigned
    edited March 2010
    thefncrow;3571183 said:
    It's pretty simple. The XNA framework allows users to upload their stuff on their own. The songs are quarantined when they first go up, and go through a process of playtesting and peer review, and when they complete those processes, automatically become available from the store. Microsoft tracks those purchases and cuts checks to the author for their share of the sales of the tracks. What you'll notice about this process is that at no point did I ever mention Harmonix. When the system is working right, Harmonix has to do very, very little to facilitate the process of getting an RBN track out for sale.

    This is all based around a community framework that Sony and Nintendo lack. Sony and Nintendo instead only have the standard entry method for DLC, which is for the stuff to come in through the game developer, be tested in the console maker's certification process, and process payments back to the game developer. Without effort on the part of Harmonix for every track, having those tracks show up on Wii and PS3 is impossible.

    Harmonix has decided to port select tracks because, frankly, that level of work, plus the work of tracking the sales for each RBN song and cutting checks to authors as appropriate, involves a direct cost to Harmonix. If they're porting a song that's going to sell 40,000 copies, they're clearly going to make enough money back to pay for the small overhead costs of porting the song, but that's probably not the case if the song sells 40 copies.

    Because there will be a fixed cost for porting every track, Harmonix is likely to port only the songs which will, at the least, cover that fixed cost. If you want more to be ported, you should be pushing Sony and Nintendo to implement community/independent development programs like XNA, so that RBN songs can come to those platforms without the intervention of Harmonix.
    Your wrong. Ps3 users should be pushing HMX to develop tools to port songs over to the ps3

    HMX should have developed a true rock band network, not a Xbox 360 Network, that allowed for common charting, common playtesting, and common data files between systems.

    Would there still be issues with finial distribuition? Yes. But there would be far fewer porting issues if HMX developed a solution that worked for all systems.

    Instead, HMX choose, [I wish you HMX deniers would at least admit that] HMX made a choice to not support PS3/Wii users by using an exclusive platfrom in XNA. They knew that XNa doesn't work with the Wii and PS3, and XNA would never work with those systems, its basically a language/tool that only develops things to run on MS systems.

    By choosing an exclusive platform to work on they eliminated support for their two other consoles.

    If HMX cared/wanted/support PS3/Wii users they would have went a different dirrection.

    For HMX to use XNA would be like HMX saying they will only put their games on Blu-ray, then when cosutmers complain, the people that support HMX would say 'Call MS tell them to put a blu-ray drive in the 360'.

    The solution again would be something more generic:

    Multiplatform development tools for developing content, (if the problem is that HMX doesn't have the resources to chart all the content), followed by differenet distributions for each console.

    So song maker X would develop there Rock Band charts in one piece of software, then the code would be transfered to each respective system. If the verification costs more/takes more time on system then another, then pass that delay/cost on to the end user. But there could have been a way to develop RBN that would work for more then just the 360.

    Instead HMX tied their hands to an exclusive platform.

    Then to make things worse they try to downplay what happened, and dont seem to understand why users of Rockband on the PS3/Wii are upset. not only that, but if a thread/post is made complaining, they lock/ban that user. Saying the issue has been 'covered'.

    If thats the case, then they should lock all the threads about people praising RBN360, because that issue has been covered. But they'd rather silence their fans that were hurt by HMX choice to make RBN 360 exclusive, then to face the music, and own up that they screwed up.
  • LoopyChewLoopyChew Wordsmith
    edited March 2010
    michal1980;3571942 said:
    Instead, HMX choose, [I wish you HMX deniers would at least admit that] HMX made a choice to not support PS3/Wii users by using an exclusive platfrom in XNA. They knew that XNa doesn't work with the Wii and PS3, and XNA would never work with those systems, its basically a language/tool that only develops things to run on MS systems.
    And here we go with my condescending jerk tone of voice. The funny thing here is, you believe everything you're saying.

    Of course XNA programs don't work with other systems. RBN isn't using XNA PROGRAMS; it's using the FRAMEWORK, the XNA's end-user audition/submission/approval PROCESS. Not once do you touch a piece of code in RBN, the only programming you do is MIDI programming which is portable beyond words, and the finished compilation is something that Rock Band, not the Xbox (aside from the metadata which comes with all DLC and probably varies from platform to platform), can read.

    I can't imagine for one instant any reason why RBN shouldn't be portable to the PS3, or even theoretically the Wii via RB3 (or whatever RB game would be in development when the following condition is met), assuming they had the same kind of end-user audition/submission/approval process that XNA does.
  • michal1980michal1980 Unsigned
    edited March 2010
    LoopyChew;3571965 said:
    And here we go with my condescending jerk tone of voice. The funny thing here is, you believe everything you're saying.

    Of course XNA programs don't work with other systems. RBN isn't using XNA PROGRAMS; it's using the FRAMEWORK, the XNA's end-user audition/submission/approval PROCESS. Not once do you touch a piece of code in RBN, the only programming you do is MIDI programming which is portable beyond words, and the finished compilation is something that Rock Band, not the Xbox (aside from the metadata which comes with all DLC and probably varies from platform to platform), can read.

    I can't imagine for one instant any reason why RBN shouldn't be portable to the PS3, or even theoretically the Wii via RB3 (or whatever RB game would be in development when the following condition is met), assuming they had the same kind of end-user audition/submission/approval process that XNA does.
    Again, XNA is exclusive to the 360. That framework doesnt, and will never work with the PS3/Wii.

    Just like God of War is not come to the 360, XNA will not come to the ps3. HMX choose to work with something that is exclusive to ONE console; thereby denying access to the RBN to the other consoles.

    Is that really that hard to understand?

    If you choose to use exclusive tools, you end up with exclusive results.

    To then turn around and blame in this case sony for not having XNA is just plan dishonest. Because sony cannot have XNA.
  • NoThru22NoThru22 Road Warrior
    edited March 2010
    michal1980;3571942 said:
    Instead, HMX choose, [I wish you HMX deniers would at least admit that] HMX made a choice to not support PS3/Wii users by using an exclusive platfrom in XNA. They knew that XNa doesn't work with the Wii and PS3, and XNA would never work with those systems, its basically a language/tool that only develops things to run on MS systems.
    This post made my day. Two years ago this guy was probably angrier than hell that HD-DVDs wouldn't play in his Blu-ray player.
  • CEEDZ13CEEDZ13 Road Warrior
    edited March 2010
    spazmcnasty;3571172 said:
    I'm sure there is a smarter way to do this then.
    other wise i feel myself asking again if rb3 is gonna be on the xbox 360 only.
    There is no way. Xbox has XNA, PS3 and Wii don't have an equivelent. what do you expect?

    BTW, I'm on PS3 so I feel your pain.
  • LoopyChewLoopyChew Wordsmith
    edited March 2010
    michal1980;3572013 said:
    Again, XNA is exclusive to the 360. That framework doesnt, and will never work with the PS3/Wii.
    The framework itself is 360 exclusive, yes. However, my argument is that, should SIMILAR framework, be developed for PS3 or Wii, RBN can be adapted to use those.
  • CEEDZ13CEEDZ13 Road Warrior
    edited March 2010
    michal1980;3572013 said:
    Again, XNA is exclusive to the 360. That framework doesnt, and will never work with the PS3/Wii.

    Just like God of War is not come to the 360 (why not?), XNA will not come to the ps3. HMX choose to work with something that is exclusive to ONE console; thereby denying access to the RBN to the other consoles.

    Is that really that hard to understand? (yes, clear that up for me)

    If you choose to use exclusive tools, you end up with exclusive results.

    To then turn around and blame in this case sony for not having XNA is just plan dishonest. Because sony cannot have XNA.(once again, why not?)
    Responces in lime green.
  • LoopyChewLoopyChew Wordsmith
    edited March 2010
    CEEDZ13;3572035 said:
    Responces in lime green.
    Well, to clear up your two "why nots," 1) God of War was developed BY Sony Computer Entertainment, and 2) XNA is developed BY Microsoft.
  • ethicalpaulethicalpaul Opening Act
    edited March 2010
    michal1980;3572013 said:
    Again, XNA is exclusive to the 360. That framework doesnt, and will never work with the PS3/Wii.

    Just like God of War is not come to the 360, XNA will not come to the ps3. HMX choose to work with something that is exclusive to ONE console; thereby denying access to the RBN to the other consoles.

    Is that really that hard to understand?

    If you choose to use exclusive tools, you end up with exclusive results.

    To then turn around and blame in this case sony for not having XNA is just plan dishonest. Because sony cannot have XNA.
    You aren't making any sense. They didn't choose to use exclusive tools, they chose to use the only tool that existed, period.

    I'm a PS3 user who had to basically buy all my RB stuff a second time just to be able to author a few tracks, and even I understand this.
  • michal1980michal1980 Unsigned
    edited March 2010
    ethicalpaul;3572069 said:
    You aren't making any sense. They didn't choose to use exclusive tools, they chose to use the only tool that existed, period.

    I'm a PS3 user who had to basically buy all my RB stuff a second time just to be able to author a few tracks, and even I understand this.
    How am I not making sense.

    Is XNA exclusive to the 360? Yes.
    Did HMX choose to use XNA? Yes.

    Therefore HMX chose to use a tool exclusive to the 360.

    As such they chose to not support PS3 users. Again, they could have developed something different that would have worked across platforms.

    P.S. If I had that kind of free money, I might switch platforms to the 360, just for RBN, I dont.
  • ethicalpaulethicalpaul Opening Act
    edited March 2010
    You are being purposely obtuse. Goodbye.
  • vedisvedis Road Warrior
    edited March 2010
    michal1980;3572117 said:
    How am I not making sense.

    Is XNA exclusive to the 360? Yes.
    Did HMX choose to use XNA? Yes.

    Therefore HMX chose to use a tool exclusive to the 360.

    As such they chose to not support PS3 users. Again, they could have developed something different that would have worked across platforms.
    ask yourself this

    does PS3 have a system such as XNA in place to be able to support RBN at all? NO NO NO NO NO
    if they were to add one, WHOS responsibility is it to do so? Sony

    The day Sony releases a system in which it will allow people to author indie games and such, to submit, review, etc etc. RBN will become portable to the PS3.


    remember RBn "IS NOT" a game, it doesnt follow the same rules normal system ports do, its just a framework, that piggy backs other types of frameworks that support it.
  • LoopyChewLoopyChew Wordsmith
    edited March 2010
    michal1980;3572117 said:
    How am I not making sense.

    Is XNA exclusive to the 360? Yes.
    Did HMX choose to use XNA? Yes.

    Therefore HMX chose to use a tool exclusive to the 360.

    As such they chose to not support PS3 users. Again, they could have developed something different that would have worked across platforms.
    Complaining that XNA is exclusive to the 360 is like complaining that Harmonix didn't include DLC support for the PS2 crowd and the PS2 crowd are getting shafted. The 360 has XNA, and RBN could ONLY work with an audition/submission/approval (also: account payment) process, which the XNA framework is.

    Unless you can name something on the PS3 that allows end users to submit content to a development community, have the community review and approve/reject it, and then sell it right then and there and you get a cut of the profit, bit your quitching about the 360 having greener grass, because if XNA didn't exist, RBN songs on the PS3, 30-day delay or not, WOULD NOT BE POSSIBLE. If I am wrong, show me, offer me an alternative that exists.
  • JormJorm Road Warrior
    edited March 2010
    HMX took the only path available to them, which happens to be Xbox|MS|XNA.

    I suppose some would rather HMX not to have done RBN at all, if they couldn't do it simultaneously for all 3 platforms (Xbox|PS3|Wii).

    Is that it? "I can't have it, so you shouldn't have it either!"
  • ZmsZms Opening Act
    edited March 2010
    michal1980;3571942 said:
    Your wrong. Ps3 users should be pushing HMX to develop tools to port songs over to the ps3
    What tools? This has nothing to do with tools or porting. That's the easy part. The main problem is distribution of external unrated user content and all the legal/practical/economical aspects that comes with it. It ain't possible without a first party setup dealing with these things.
    michal1980;3571942 said:
    HMX should have developed a true rock band network, not a Xbox 360 Network, that allowed for common charting, common playtesting, and common data files between systems.

    Would there still be issues with finial distribuition? Yes. But there would be far fewer porting issues if HMX developed a solution that worked for all systems.
    There is no way a third party developer could pull that off on any console. There has to be a first party solution in place for a thing like this. Unrated user content is simply not allowed on any console (outside of XNA) for a ton of reasons. No other game has external user created content for sale. This is a world first, history in the making, and wouldn't be possible without a first party equivalent like XNA. If Sony were the ones offering this on their console, it would've been the other way around.
    michal198;35719420 said:
    Instead, HMX choose, [I wish you HMX deniers would at least admit that] HMX made a choice to not support PS3/Wii users by using an exclusive platfrom in XNA. They knew that XNa doesn't work with the Wii and PS3, and XNA would never work with those systems, its basically a language/tool that only develops things to run on MS systems.
    XNA is not a language, neither a tool. It is a concept and a framework for user created content. The purpose of XNA is to bypass the whole process that regular content has to go through. This is what makes indie content possible. Again, porting content between consoles isn't the issue. The only other choice HMX had (until we see a similar setup on the PS3/Wii) was no RBN at all.
    michal198;35719420 said:
    If HMX cared/wanted/support PS3/Wii users they would have went a different dirrection.
    Ignorant much? They care, but they can't do anything about it without an XNA equivalent in place. How many times do they have to point this out?
    michal198;35719420 said:
    For HMX to use XNA would be like HMX saying they will only put their games on Blu-ray, then when cosutmers complain, the people that support HMX would say 'Call MS tell them to put a blu-ray drive in the 360'.
    No it wouldn't. A Blu-ray drive is not required for a game like this. An XNA equivalent is required for a thing like RBN. But yes, just like putting a Blu-ray drive in the 360, it's nothing a third party software developer can do. The same goes for a thing like XNA/RBN.
    michal1980;3571942 said:
    Multiplatform development tools for developing content, (if the problem is that HMX doesn't have the resources to chart all the content), followed by differenet distributions for each console.
    HMX has no control over how content is distributed on a specific console. In the case of PS3/Wii, content can only be distributed as regular DLC, and has to go through their respective process of releasing purchasable content.
    michal1980;3571942 said:
    If the verification costs more/takes more time on system then another, then pass that delay/cost on to the end user.
    What? Like charging $4 for obscure indie songs that won't sell very well in the first place?
    michal1980;3571942 said:
    But there could have been a way to develop RBN that would work for more then just the 360.
    No, not without the helping hand of MS/Sony/Nintendo.
    michal1980;3571942 said:
    Then to make things worse they try to downplay what happened, and dont seem to understand why users of Rockband on the PS3/Wii are upset. not only that, but if a thread/post is made complaining, they lock/ban that user. Saying the issue has been 'covered'.
    They are? I think they are extremely tolerant with people like you spreading misinformation like this.
  • davidshekdavidshek Community Playtester
    edited March 2010
    michal1980;3571942 said:
    Your wrong. Ps3 users should be pushing HMX to develop tools to port songs over to the ps3
    Oh goodie, opfreak is back under an alt account! Because having his first account banned and all of his posts deleted wasn't enough apparently...
  • michal1980michal1980 Unsigned
    edited March 2010
    Zms;3572138 said:

    They are? I think they are extremely tolerant with people like you spreading misinformation like this.
    Pretty soon I'll be silenced too. Just like anyone that doesnt sign the praises of HMX.
  • michal1980michal1980 Unsigned
    edited March 2010
    davidshek;3572142 said:
    Oh goodie, opfreak is back under an alt account! Because having his first account banned and all of his posts deleted wasn't enough apparently...

    yup same guy. set this account up back in 2007 just for this purpose.
  • LoopyChewLoopyChew Wordsmith
    edited March 2010
    michal1980;3572154 said:
    Pretty soon I'll be silenced too. Just like anyone that doesnt sign the praises of HMX.
    There are plenty of people who don't sing the praises on HMX around here. People here are silenced because they behave like absolute jackasses.
  • EhfahqEhfahq Headliner
    edited March 2010
    michal1980;3572156 said:
    yup same guy. set this account up back in 2007 just for this purpose.
    Good bye again, whiny troll.
  • michal1980michal1980 Unsigned
    edited March 2010
    Jorm;3572136 said:
    HMX took the only path available to them, which happens to be Xbox|MS|XNA.

    I suppose some would rather HMX not to have done RBN at all, if they couldn't do it simultaneously for all 3 platforms (Xbox|PS3|Wii).

    Is that it? "I can't have it, so you shouldn't have it either!"
    No its more like "You can have it. Why Can't I?"

    RBN is a good idea. One that IMHO, should have been hatched out for ALL users of HMX DLC, not just 360 users.

    Again, even if the development tools/setup isn't there.

    RBN DLC should be setup, so that all content gets formated for all platfroms. I have little issues with the time delays, even costs, as long it all shows up so I can purchase it using Rocband for a system other then the 360.
  • davidshekdavidshek Community Playtester
    edited March 2010
    michal1980;3572156 said:
    yup same guy. set this account up back in 2007 just for this purpose.
    No, you set up this account in 2007 to blame HMX for Activision blocking the GH3 guitar patch on the PS3.

    http://www.rockband.com/forums/showpost.php?p=225435&postcount=1341
    http://www.rockband.com/forums/showpost.php?p=229307&postcount=1381
    http://www.rockband.com/forums/showpost.php?p=231146&postcount=1405

    That's the only other time you've ever posted on this account. Isn't the "Find all posts by..." utility fun? :cool:
  • LoopyChewLoopyChew Wordsmith
    edited March 2010
    michal1980;3572196 said:
    RBN DLC should be setup, so that all content gets formated for all platfroms. I have little issues with the time delays, even costs, as long it all shows up so I can purchase it using Rocband for a system other then the 360.
    Just wait until April 4.
  • Catch-22Catch-22 Road Warrior
    edited March 2010
    michal1980;3572196 said:
    No its more like "You can have it. Why Can't I?"

    RBN is a good idea. One that IMHO, should have been hatched out for ALL users of HMX DLC, not just 360 users.

    Again, even if the development tools/setup isn't there.

    RBN DLC should be setup, so that all content gets formated for all platfroms. I have little issues with the time delays, even costs, as long it all shows up so I can purchase it using Rocband for a system other then the 360.
    Good news, RBN songs will show up for other systems just not all of it. If you honestly think all the songs being ported over is realistic you're crazy. HMX has to submit these songs for testing by Sony and Nintendo and complete additional work for the songs to be placed up for sale. This costs them money whereas the XNA process doesn't so a song that only sold 100 units on the 360 isn't a profit loss for HMX but if they ported it over and only sold 100 units on the PS3 they probably will lose money. Bottom line they wont port songs that can't make them money or at least break even.
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