Why Do We Still Play Hi-Hats As Red? Why Did We Ever?

uppyb0tuppyb0t Opening Act
edited June 2010 in The Rock Band Network
Herro,

I've been playing Rock Band since the beginning and I've never understood why the red notes swap the yellow on certain songs with fast rolling hi-hats.

It's more natural in all standpoints to have it as yellow at all times. It's easier and makes more sense and builds more drumming fundamentals. The need to completely change within a song is senseless and doesn't fit.

I play Rock Band every day. I own an Ion kit, modded with Roland PDX-8 due to wear. Most players that are serious by now, want it to be as authentic as possible. Even the option to have it 'realistic mode' or something along those lines to always have the hi-hat notes as yellow would be amazing and make sense. Just plain ol' sense.

I was just playing Different People from the recent No Doubt DLC and playing the song on the reds was a let down. Then when it hits the part of the song with hi-hats only, it switches to the yellow notes. When the snare kicks back in, you're playing on the reds again. Just wonky.

Is there a possibility of this option ever coming? I'd redownload if I had to. It'd be worth it. Not repay.

And also the songs with constant rolls, but have accents, so that's all you play is broken up rolls when the drummer hits the snare harder. It's not as rewarding or fun to see the RB animated drummer playing more than you.

I want to play Timebomb, Moonshine Hollar, and Homeward Bound rolling the entire way. I could on Stevie Ray's Rude Mood.

Please consider these possibilities.

Back to playin.... like you all should be

Comments

  • S1ckH4ndsS1ckH4nds YouTube Guru
    edited May 2010
    Just for fun, try putting Lefty Mode on sometime and see how well it plays when you have to move your hand to the left to hit the snares on a steady roll of 16ths. Then maybe you'll understand why it is the way it is.
  • SoratarSoratar Scapegoat
    edited May 2010
    Play Everlong or New and you'll have your answer as to why they went red. I would not want to be playing yellow on those notes.
  • overdriveguitarmanoverdriveguitarman The Walrus
    edited May 2010
    I completely agree, I believe "Like A Fool" DID chart the hi-hat on yellow in kind of fast rolls which was amazing and easy to get used to.

    I really wish they did that all that time, I hate it as well.
  • Catch-22Catch-22 Road Warrior
    edited May 2010
    First, I don't think this is the right section for this post.

    Second, sixteenth note hi-hat snare parts are charted to red and yellow respectively to preserve motion and make the playing more authentic. Assuming you don't have cymbals on your RB drum kit, keeping these parts "normal" would result in a drummer either crossing their arms to hit the snare or using the left hand instead of the right. Proper technique is the right hand plays the snare not the left. So all in all it's more realistic as is and the only way to do it properly. Try playing these beats in GH with their drum set. It's a nightmare.
  • overdriveguitarmanoverdriveguitarman The Walrus
    edited May 2010
    I can play these disco beats all very fast, just as fast as from red to yellow, on yellow to red.

    I have stock rock band 2 drums and I do have cymbals, but even just using the pad yellow to pad red I can still do it very fast and easily.

    Green to blue does NOT work it doesn't make any sense at all so suggesting lefty mode is not a valid argument
  • Catch-22Catch-22 Road Warrior
    edited May 2010
    overdriveguitarman;3676571 said:

    Green to blue does NOT work it doesn't make any sense at all so suggesting lefty mode is not a valid argument
    That's his point, it's the same sticking motion you would have to make playing it yellow hi-hat red snare without crossing arms (which you shouldn't have to do, and real drummers don't do).
  • overdriveguitarmanoverdriveguitarman The Walrus
    edited May 2010
    Catch-22;3676578 said:
    That's his point, it's the same sticking motion you would have to make playing it yellow hi-hat red snare without crossing arms (which you shouldn't have to do, and real drummers don't do).
    No I mean Green is BELOW the blue on the rock band set, that doesn't make any sense.

    But the yellow pad on the stock kit is higher than the red and I can easily do the disco beats without crossing my arms.

    I could make a video if it is REALLY necessary
  • Catch-22Catch-22 Road Warrior
    edited May 2010
    overdriveguitarman;3676585 said:
    No I mean Green is BELOW the blue on the rock band set, that doesn't make any sense.

    But the yellow pad on the stock kit is higher than the red and I can easily do the disco beats without crossing my arms.

    I could make a video if it is REALLY necessary
    Unless you have the tiniest hands imaginable I can't think of anyway you can hit the red with your right hand and not cross your arms.
  • overdriveguitarmanoverdriveguitarman The Walrus
    edited May 2010
    Catch-22;3676592 said:
    Unless you have the tiniest hands imaginable I can't think of anyway you can hit the red with your right hand and not cross your arms.
    Have you tried it on your rock band set?

    I do not have tiny hands it is really easy
  • Catch-22Catch-22 Road Warrior
    edited May 2010
    overdriveguitarman;3676596 said:
    Have you tried it on your rock band set?

    I do not have tiny hands it is really easy
    Yes I have and I cross arms every single time.
  • SoratarSoratar Scapegoat
    edited May 2010
    Catch-22;3676592 said:
    Unless you have the tiniest hands imaginable I can't think of anyway you can hit the red with your right hand and not cross your arms.
    He has a point here. In order to be able to play those type of notes, you would have to start with your left hand opposed to your right. 16th note high-hat hits starting with the left hand don't happen very often in music.
  • overdriveguitarmanoverdriveguitarman The Walrus
    edited May 2010
    I think I have to make a quick video...

    I am starting with my right hand

    I am going

    RLRLRLRLRLRLR *repeat*
  • SoratarSoratar Scapegoat
    edited May 2010
    overdriveguitarman;3676621 said:
    I think I have to make a quick video...

    I am starting with my right hand

    I am going

    RLRLRLRLRLRLR *repeat*
    I just tried it on my RB set, and it is possible, just really uncomfortable, unnatural, my sticks are hitting each other, and I'm barely hitting the red pad. High-hat hits on the red pad is just more natural.
  • overdriveguitarmanoverdriveguitarman The Walrus
    edited May 2010
    Soratar;3676642 said:
    I just tried it on my RB set, and it is possible, just really uncomfortable, unnatural, my sticks are hitting each other, and I'm barely hitting the red pad. High-hat hits on the red pad is just more natural.
    You just have to get used to it, I thought the bass pedal felt unnatural at one point! :p
  • Thrasher9294Thrasher9294 Opening Act
    edited May 2010
    Most people have their high hat on the left side of the Snare on a real drumset. When doing 16th rolls, it makes sense to start on the left side as it would be difficult to move so far to the left without SOMETHING affecting your left hand at the same time.
  • FairwoodStudiosFairwoodStudios Road Warrior
    edited May 2010
    Preface: I'm an actual drummer. I've performed and written several original drum lines, and re-interpreted some old tracks.... 'cause I forgot the real lines. But anyway.

    The disco flip (the hi-hats on red, which you're referring to) is perfectly accurate in terms of sticking. Drummers, by large, lead with their dominant hand, which the default arrangement assumes is the right hand. So by doing the disco flip the game encourages you to use the same sticking that the actual drummer uses, which helps maintain the accuracy that Rock Band aims for with drumming.

    Further, it's accurate in terms of motion. Hi-hats are to the left of the snare on a standard orientation. Most drummers, though, play cross-handed, keeping time with their right (dominant) hand over their left striking hand. So hats being on yellow normally makes sense. But, when you're doing a two-hand ride, you would on a real kit be moving to the right to strike the snare. The option is to move the snare way over to the right (leaving red unused, since generally there's nothing further to the left than the hats) or swap snare and hats like they did.

    Now, if you've played our song Home, you may be wondering why I'm defending the disco flip when we didn't use it for the intro. The reason there is, that pattern is on a tom, which is generally to the right of the snare, not the left. We opted to focus on preserving motion, with the assumption that their drummer did in fact lead with his left for some reason, as that's the only non-awkward way to play it. We do have two upcoming songs that use the disco flip, and they are both far more fun to play with it on than off.

    So to answer the topic question: we do it because it's more fun, more natural, and more accurate, and like it or not Rock Band is trying to teach you to drum properly.
  • overdriveguitarmanoverdriveguitarman The Walrus
    edited May 2010
    It still isn't very realistic though,

    the only real way to fix this is to make cymbals necessary...

    which I highly doubt would happen
  • SwivleSwivle Rising Star
    edited May 2010
    The only reason Like a Fool works is because the notes are triplets, giving the beat a 3/4 feel. This means you only need a snare as the sixth note, rather than the eighth, in every measure. If you play five notes in a row on yellow, you end on your right hand, leaving the left open for a snare hit on the red.

    For regular 4/4 'disco' beats, how does a real drummer play it? Alternating on the hi hat, and a snare hit to the right. How does Rock Band make you play it? Alternating on the hi hat (red) and snare hit to the right (yellow). It makes sense. Why is these even being discussed?
  • QuazifujiQuazifuji Opening Act
    edited May 2010
    overdriveguitarman;3676557 said:
    I completely agree, I believe "Like A Fool" DID chart the hi-hat on yellow in kind of fast rolls which was amazing and easy to get used to.

    I really wish they did that all that time, I hate it as well.
    It works it Like a Fool because the song has a weird rhythm (I forget if it's the snares or the bass that's offbeat, but one of the two is) so that if you alternate hands and hit the snare with your left hand, the bass will fall on your right hand. In most songs with red high-hats, the snares and bass both fall on the same type of beat, so the bass will occur with the same hand that you hit the snare with. There are some weird beats where this doesn't happen (Outside, E-Pro, etc), but it feels much more natural when the rhythm works in a way that makes it possible.

    Edit: Ninja'd by Swivle's better explanation, although I think the bass thing is still part of what gives Like a Fool a more natural feel.
    uppyb0t;3676544 said:

    I play Rock Band every day. I own an Ion kit, modded with Roland PDX-8 due to wear. Most players that are serious by now, want it to be as authentic as possible. Even the option to have it 'realistic mode' or something along those lines to always have the hi-hat notes as yellow would be amazing and make sense. Just plain ol' sense.
    Although many players may want things to be realistic, most players, even those who are serious, do not have an ION kit (or another electronic drum set that allows them to position the high hat where it would go on a real drum kit). I'm not sure if you're trying to say that things should be designed under the assumption that people playing difficult expert songs have some sort of cymbal set up, but if so, that's kind of ridiculous. It's like the people who say that anyone buying difficult metal songs has two bass pedals - it's not true, and excludes all the people who play Rock Band a lot but still don't want to spend extra money on more equipment.

    With a stock kit with no realistically-placed cymbal, playing these patterns on the yellow is incredibly difficult. Ever try playing Everlong on GH:WT with a stock Rock Band drum kit? I can't even pass it, even though I have very little problems with the song in Rock Band, and the charts are pretty much the same aside from the yellows and reds being switched.

    I'd support an option that turns off disco flip and switches the yellows and reds for things like this (since disco flip is specifically labeled in the charts, it may even be possible to set up something that does it automatically without needing to be specifically charted, although there could easily be technical issues with this that I'm unaware of), but the situation with that is pretty much the same as the expert+ mode people often demand: even though it would be optional and thus doesn't hurt anything, it only affects expert difficulty of a small number of songs for people with special non-stock equipment, so it may not be worth the time/trouble it would take for Harmonix to implement.
  • cmajpwccmajpwc Opening Act
    edited May 2010
    If it was set up to be "authentic", as you say, the hi hat should always be on the red, as on a real kit you should be crossing your arms to play it. Like FairwoodStudios said, most drummers play cross handed and the hi hat is to the left, including myself. My guess, is you like how the hi hat is slightly off to the right of the snare and raised up a bit in the Guitar Hero set. Right? That's still wrong, as the snare should actually be in the middle, and not the left side. When Rock Band switches the hi hat notes in songs like Everlong, it's actually more accurate, whether you like it or not.
  • Fezz-HeadFezz-Head Opening Act
    edited May 2010
    I don't like how in songs like Give it Away by RHCP, open hi-hats are charted to blue. I can understand for the songs where it goes for the whatever it's called where you press down on the hi-hat pedal, if anyone knows what this IRL drums noob is talking about.
  • overdriveguitarmanoverdriveguitarman The Walrus
    edited May 2010
    Fezz-Head;3676947 said:
    I don't like how in songs like Give it Away by RHCP, open hi-hats are charted to blue. I can understand for the songs where it goes for the whatever it's called where you press down on the hi-hat pedal, if anyone knows what this IRL drums noob is talking about.
    The only other problem I have with drums

    It seems all of the problems are with the hi-hat, they really need to figure out a new system for it. When I get real drums I will have to get used to a whole new world with the hi-hat...
  • thefuzz09thefuzz09 Unsigned
    edited May 2010
    overdriveguitarman;3676972 said:
    The only other problem I have with drums

    It seems all of the problems are with the hi-hat, they really need to figure out a new system for it. When I get real drums I will have to get used to a whole new world with the hi-hat...
    Wait this whole time you were talking about the drums needing to be more accurate to real drums and you don't even play real drums.
  • Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Road Warrior
    edited May 2010
    thefuzz09;3677536 said:
    Wait this whole time you were talking about the drums needing to be more accurate to real drums and you don't even play real drums.
    It rather puts all this into perspective, doesn't it?
  • RegulusRegulus Opening Act
    edited May 2010
    Hi-hat should never have been on yellow that makes no sense for it to be.
  • Bront20Bront20 The Writing's on the Wall
    edited May 2010
    Regulus;3677728 said:
    Hi-hat should never have been on yellow that makes no sense for it to be.
    Snare has to be red by default, because snare to tom rolls should go from right to left on a right handed kit. As a result, snare plus high hat has to be red plus yellow.

    As mentioned previously in the thread, many drummers cross stick a high hat and snare hit anyway, playing the high-hat with the right hand and the snare with the left.
  • T-HybridT-Hybrid Washed Up
    edited May 2010
    S1ckH4nds;3676552 said:
    Just for fun, try putting Lefty Mode on sometime and see how well it plays when you have to move your hand to the left to hit the snares on a steady roll of 16ths. Then maybe you'll understand why it is the way it is.
    *THIS*

    People always forget about the Leftys....
  • cmajpwccmajpwc Opening Act
    edited May 2010
    thefuzz09;3677536 said:
    Wait this whole time you were talking about the drums needing to be more accurate to real drums and you don't even play real drums.
    Lol.
  • DaytripDaytrip Opening Act
    edited May 2010
    thefuzz09;3677536 said:
    Wait this whole time you were talking about the drums needing to be more accurate to real drums and you don't even play real drums.
    welcome to the woderful world that is overdriveguitarman.
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