does anyone think the charting got out of hand

ts_stepts_step Unsigned
edited June 2010 in The Rock Band Network
i have notice most of the song(mostly metal) on RBN is really close to a expert + chart
some of them are impossible to pass with double bass
the charting REALLY got out of hand imo

Comments

  • vedisvedis Road Warrior
    edited June 2010
    they dont have double bass, and if they did, they shoulda been failed in review, as its not allowed
  • DragoonXDDragoonXD Road Warrior
    edited June 2010
    "Where the Light Was Born..." has double bass charted.
  • jimburyjimbury Road Warrior
    edited June 2010
    if people can do it then its not out of hand

    when you get a tune that noone can finish then its fair to say the charters have gone too far
  • SomethingWithPeachesSomethingWithPeaches Opening Act
    edited June 2010
    wow. does look way overcharted with those bass kicks on drums. pretty unfair.
  • KariodudeKariodude Road Warrior
    edited June 2010
    For some reason people keep grouping all of the RBN authors together like it's one single entity.

    "RBN overcharts drums"

    "RBN has bad sound quality"

    Stuff like that gets under my skin. Just because you play a song that has bad mixing or double bass charted doesn't mean that all of the RBN authors are doing it.
  • CleantoneCleantone Unsigned
    edited June 2010
    Aren't people usually complaining about undercharted kick drums? Seems like you can't please them all.
  • jeccanekojeccaneko Headliner
    edited June 2010
    vedis;3738540 said:
    they dont have double bass, and if they did, they shoulda been failed in review, as its not allowed
    My question, as someone who is thinking about getting into playtesting... is it even mandatory for all instruments to be tested in review? Otherwise, it would be way too easy for an instrument to get ignored and songs get passed, but one or more instruments have things that probably should have gotten caught in a review.
  • vedisvedis Road Warrior
    edited June 2010
    jeccaneko;3738644 said:
    My question, as someone who is thinking about getting into playtesting... is it even mandatory for all instruments to be tested in review? Otherwise, it would be way too easy for an instrument to get ignored and songs get passed, but one or more instruments have things that probably should have gotten caught in a review.
    there are authors who try to go to review before a song gets tested properly(or at all)

    they pretty much get their songs ignored in review, and called out in the review threads as to having done it

    need i say more


    but you really do want everything tested, at least 2 for every instrument on every difficulty(vocals being the exception, as it just needs to be tested in general on any difficulty)
  • Fragory123Fragory123 Rising Star
    edited June 2010
    DragoonXD;3738548 said:
    "Where the Light Was Born..." has double bass charted.
    It does have double bass charted but it's doable with one foot, well, barely, but it's possible. I think the rule is as long as you can play it with one foot it's allowed.
  • QuazifujiQuazifuji Opening Act
    edited June 2010
    Cleantone;3738611 said:
    Aren't people usually complaining about undercharted kick drums? Seems like you can't please them all.
    I think this is the problem here. Some people have two pedals (or just one but they're really hardcore) and want as much challenge as possible, especially from extreme metal songs, while other people want things more reasonable. Fortunately, we do get a mix of both in the charting, so it works out (although it's always disappointing if a song you like gets charted but not in your preferred style).

    I'm pretty sure the guy who charted Where the Light Was Born wanted his songs to be as challenging as they could and was target people who like ridiculously difficult extreme metal with them, so he charted as much bass as he could get away with. Since the double bass in that song is just barely slowly enough to be theoretically playable with one pedal, he was able to get it through.

    Most songs don't have double bass charted, though, but some metal songs have double bass so fast even when only half of it's charted it feels like double bass.
    jeccaneko;3738644 said:
    My question, as someone who is thinking about getting into playtesting... is it even mandatory for all instruments to be tested in review? Otherwise, it would be way too easy for an instrument to get ignored and songs get passed, but one or more instruments have things that probably should have gotten caught in a review.
    I'm not a tester, so I may be wrong here, but here's the impression I get:

    I believe for review you're supposed to look at every difficulty for every instrument, although to a certain extent it's an honor system since there's no way to prove it, and there definitely seem to be people who just play expert guitar and then check yes on everything. Presumably, these people are the reason clearly flawed charts (e.g. Fat Kid) get through. (Although for subjective/stylistic things that don't explicitly break rules, like Bornholm's fast-but-technically-playable-with-one-foot bass, reviewers aren't supposed to fail the song, just give suggestions and maybe not give a review either way).

    For playtest, since the purpose of that is to give feedback and not to actually approve the song for the store, you can just review whatever difficulties or instruments you want.
    Kariodude;3738604 said:
    For some reason people keep grouping all of the RBN authors together like it's one single entity.

    "RBN overcharts drums"

    "RBN has bad sound quality"

    Stuff like that gets under my skin. Just because you play a song that has bad mixing or double bass charted doesn't mean that all of the RBN authors are doing it.
    I definitely agree with this. A handful (maybe even more, but not more than a few tens) of songs with problematic charting among hundreds of high-quality charts, some of which are practically indistinguishable from ones made by Harmonix, seems like a great record and a success to me.
  • DekarTheDragoonDekarTheDragoon Opening Act
    edited June 2010
    There are definitely parts in some RBN songs where the bass seems kinda unreasonable, imo. Do-able? Sure, I guess, but crazy difficult especially with a stock pedal, which is what it's supposed to be done with iirc.
  • YakalotYakalot Opening Act
    edited June 2010
    Fragory123;3738663 said:
    It does have double bass charted but it's doable with one foot, well, barely, but it's possible. I think the rule is as long as you can play it with one foot it's allowed.

    How fast is it exactly?

    I know Magic Bus has a section of really fast bass, but I think Where the Light was Born is faster. It's a shame too, because I'd buy it if it was normally charted. Heck, maybe I'll still buy it and go buy another pedal.
  • GeneralGilliamGeneralGilliam Opening Act
    edited June 2010
    This is kinda a tricky subject and has to be looked at at each song individually, it cannot be generalized. This song has a BPM slow enough that these "double-kicks" can be played with one foot. Albeit you must be pretty good to play it with one foot, but that's fine seeing as how this is a heavy metal song and t is meant to be difficult, therefore a large majority of people downloading it are looking for a challenge. That's why this was able to be passed. If it was something like this in a song that was cheery or upbeat it wouldn't have passed.

    Oh, and yes, every instrument MUST be looked at in review. There are 2 processes, playtesting and peer review. Playtesting is where a reviewer can test any combination of instruments and difficulties (must test at least 1 instrument on 1 difficulty), where Peer Review is where a reviewer must test all instruments on all difficulties.

    Hope that helps!
  • SwivleSwivle Rising Star
    edited June 2010
    Yakalot;3739310 said:
    How fast is it exactly?

    I know Magic Bus has a section of really fast bass, but I think Where the Light was Born is faster. It's a shame too, because I'd buy it if it was normally charted. Heck, maybe I'll still buy it and go buy another pedal.
    It is very doable, and pretty damn fun, with two pedals. I'd recommend getting it and a second pedal.
  • ThatAuthoringGroupThatAuthoringGroup Numero Uno Super **** Fanboy #1
    edited June 2010
    We had this discussion when it was in review.

    The author swears up and down he can hit it with a stock RB kit, and the rule is you can chart as much bass as is possible to hit with the stock RB kit.

    I can barely do painkiller on expert drums, so it was beyond my ability, but it was slow enough so that was the reason why it was passed as is.

    The problem with Peer Review is there is a MAJOR misconception about how to handle it in regards to the 'checklist' when you are peer reviewing a song.

    The peer review checklist is an XNA checklist from MS kind of shoehorned into RBN to prevent pornographic, hateful, etc etc items from being sold on XNA.

    It asks you if there was foul language, racist remarks, threats against other people, etc etc.

    So a lot of people(myself included when I first started), think that since a song is playtested that when it gets to Peer Review, you just have to do a quick play on a single instrument to make sure it doesn't have any of these things.

    As was stated above, sometimes songs get pushed into Peer Review sooner than they should, and the newer people that haven't learned that you need to test every difficulty/every instrument, just give it a quick look over to see if there's any bad words, or that it sounds ok. You get enough of these testers that don't understand, then a song can get into the store and have things borked up.

    I'm not saying that's what happened here, because it isn't, I'm just responding to the question about Peer Review.

    We're working on getting the documentation changed to reflect how PR needs to be properly looked at, but until MS lets them change the actual PR checklist, it will continue as such with the new testers.
  • DekarTheDragoonDekarTheDragoon Opening Act
    edited June 2010
    I'd love to see a video of him/someone hitting it with a stock pedal. I know my chops aren't the greatest, but I swear I miss a third of it :o

    I have better luck with the fast-blasts than that section >_>

    I also completely disagree with the sentiment that if this was a pop song with that kind of bass it wouldn't have passed. If the bass is by the rules it should be there regardless of genre. If it stretches the rule, it should not be there just because some of the metal downloaders are difficulty nuts.
  • ZhaneBXZhaneBX Opening Act
    edited June 2010
    noble;3739672 said:
    The author swears up and down he can hit it with a stock RB kit
    I'm neutral on this topic, but if that's all that's necessary... ;)
  • ThatAuthoringGroupThatAuthoringGroup Numero Uno Super **** Fanboy #1
    edited June 2010
    ZhaneBX;3740132 said:
    I'm neutral on this topic, but if that's all that's necessary... ;)


    That is all that's necessary.

    On expert that is.

    If you can hit it on a stock RB kit with one pedal, then it is allowable.

    Barring you are not adding any extra notes that aren't being played by the instrument in the song.
  • DekarTheDragoonDekarTheDragoon Opening Act
    edited June 2010
    I think he was implying if all that is necessary is the author saying he can hit it, not that if hitting it is all that is necessary. I think it was more towards trusting the author's word in this case. I think, definitely could be wrong :p
  • ThatAuthoringGroupThatAuthoringGroup Numero Uno Super **** Fanboy #1
    edited June 2010
    Well the problem there is there is only a very tiny handfull of us that are 'leet' drummers.

    So it is very possible that a person could hit those, I'm just not one of them...so we kind of have to trust them on issues such as this ;)
  • DekarTheDragoonDekarTheDragoon Opening Act
    edited June 2010
    I'd guess the amount of drummers that could 1-foot that section is very very small (if it exists at all... >_> <_<), so it's not a surprise. I just wonder because it seriously makes the intro to This Calling look slow. I can hit a lot of that on a good day, this song not so much :p

    I understand where you're coming from and there's little you can do by the rules, but where does it stop if the author says he can hit it?

    Also I want to say that this is nothing against you and the rest of the people working hard to bring us RBN tracks. I respect and am very thankful for the time everyone takes to do this.
  • ZhaneBXZhaneBX Opening Act
    edited June 2010
    DekarTheDragoon;3740390 said:
    I think he was implying if all that is necessary is the author saying he can hit it, not that if hitting it is all that is necessary. I think it was more towards trusting the author's word in this case. I think, definitely could be wrong :p
    This. Just meant the "I swear it" part. Sorry if i wasn't clear enough. :)
  • xXPM5KXxxXPM5KXx Opening Act
    edited June 2010
    Well..all I know is that now I can beat Visions without breaking a sweat, yet some of these RBN are destroying me. Arsis and Job For A Cowboy are both insanely fast and difficult to the point of frustration (as well as a couple others Im drawing blanks on) So yes I think they are beginning to get out of hand..but only because select few keep beating them which leads to harder songs it seems
  • ASPRonASPRon Opening Act
    edited June 2010
    I don't think its getting out of hand , I think things songs have gotten more complex. There was a time when Visions was unbeatable by most. You will get thru these in no time as well. Say if Raymond from Fear Factory would pop up would you want to try his feet or would you want a dumbed down version?These song are like the Joe S, Yngvie and Vai for the drums. I think it would be more rewarding for the players when you master tracks like these instead of dumbed down versions.Especially when drums on rockband can really transcend into playing drums for real.
  • macamaticmacamatic Road Warrior
    edited June 2010
    DekarTheDragoon;3740048 said:
    I'd love to see a video of him/someone hitting it with a stock pedal. I know my chops aren't the greatest, but I swear I miss a third of it :o

    I have better luck with the fast-blasts than that section >_>
    Although I'm unable to post a video, I could probably hit it. I'm pretty sure the normally charted double bass in Days Without is faster, and I know I can hit that (though it's extremely taxing). Although I use a Rock Pedal, on the occasions where I do use stock, I can keep up anyway; it's just more tiring.

    Basically, that part isn't unreasonable if you can pound away with your foot fast enough, which, admittedly, most cannot.
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