Will the awesome new RB3/RBN 2.0 stuff hurt song production?

kingtonyxkingtonyx Unofficial
edited June 2010 in The Rock Band Network
I think it's obvious that it will because there is so much more to chart with the Pro Mode and what not.

My biggest concern is that most of the playtesters will NOT be able to test the Pro charts properly, if at all (due to not having the stringed guitar controllers)

Not to mention all of the authors are going to have learn all of this stuff over again.

Seems to me that the number of songs coming out every week will be drastically reduced.

Comments

  • kingtonyxkingtonyx Unofficial
    edited June 2010
    I guess that's a possibility (I think you might know more than me?)

    I wonder if a lack of "Pro Mode" will hinder RBN sales?
  • HeXcodaHeXcoda Road Warrior
    edited June 2010
    I'm a song tester, but I don't know much more than you. I'm just guessing here.

    Lack of pro drums may hinder. Anybody with a drumset + cymbal expansion (plenty of drummers have that) would want this, since it requires no extra hardware.

    Lack of pro guitars probably won't hinder; you need to buy a brand new guitar, which hasn't been priced or dated or anything. The hardest of the hardcore will be going this route. (Seriously, not many RB players even get to basic expert.)

    Lack of keyboards would hinder for new players that jumped in with RB3, but hey, not every song has keyboards...

    I think the core RB experience is fine and will continue to be fine. Pro trappings would HELP but I doubt they'd be a make or break on a song in terms of sales.
  • SirDavidTLynchSirDavidTLynch Headliner
    edited June 2010
    I wonder if pro mode is automatically charted, at least on drums. It's possible that it could go by the animations, but it's just as possible that there are some incorrectly animated drums that flew by testers, even at Harmonix.
  • FairwoodStudiosFairwoodStudios Road Warrior
    edited June 2010
    kingtonyx;3751770 said:
    (I think you might know more than me?)
    Possibly, but only on subjects like software design patterns and poetic forms, not necessarily anything relevant to this discussion. :p

    Auto-generated Pro Mode is theoretically possible, but as you mentioned mis-animated songs could have easily gone through without being noticed. It's more likely on guitar than drums, since there's many ways to get similar tones from a guitar and those animations are less precise when authored. (We only get 17 or 18 'frets' to animate to, when real guitars have 20-some.)
  • General Lein979General Lein979 Headliner
    edited June 2010
    I think you'll get everyone of the new features but pro guitar due to the fact that it's basically tab coming at you and crappy charting on would hinder the guitar learner. So unless if hmx has created a magical program that can make a tab out of an audio file it won't happen easily. Then again I dunno how they're going to teach the rbn authors how to chart piano accurately.
  • T-HybridT-Hybrid Washed Up
    edited June 2010
    Pro Mode on the RBN is risky...since it would require peer testers to actually know how songs are played IRL. It's one thing to know a how a good RB chart should feel, but how could you test a Pro chart unless you actually knew the instrument?
  • T-HybridT-Hybrid Washed Up
    edited June 2010
    General Lein979;3752195 said:
    So unless if hmx has created a magical program that can make a tab out of an audio file it won't happen easily.
    Would such a program be "magical"? A tab is all about where your fingers go on the frets. And each finger placement is a unique sound. So it could just be a matter of telling the game "This note is an 'E'" and the generator spits out the appropriate in-game tab.

    The only reason charting for games now is hard is because you have to convert frets/strings into five buttons and a strum. If you actually have the frets/strings available there's no conversion required, and thus little to no possiblity of error since it's all 1:1 mapping. Provided you have accurate tabs of course.
  • davidshekdavidshek Community Playtester
    edited June 2010
    T-Hybrid;3752207 said:
    Would such a program be "magical"? A tab is all about where your fingers go on the frets. And each finger placement is a unique sound. So it could just be a matter of telling the game "This note is an 'E'" and the generator spits out the appropriate in-game tab.
    Yeah, except that it's not. You can play the exact same note in 5 or 6 different places on a guitar's fretboard. Same thing with chords. If you're talking about a single string, sure, what you said would be true. But with 6 strings all tuned to different notes, tones are duplicated all over the place.

    So yes, such a program would indeed be "magical", and that's why one does not exist yet to this day. :)
  • HelloMasterHelloMaster Opening Act
    edited June 2010
    It's tough. On the one hand, T-Hybrid is absolutely right. Pro on RBN is risky business. It stands the chance of alienating the volunteer QA team, many of whom have purchased costly XNA memberships for the sole purpose of being testers. Plus, it's a huge bear on the charting companies, who now have to design that many more charts. It also gets to the point that music knowledge will factor in.

    BUT, by not supporting Pro in RBN, HMX takes the opposite risk of shooting one of its revenue streams in the foot. While "official" DLC and RBN DLC are not entirely alike in dignity, it's clear that HMX wants consumers to trust that RBN is no less of an experience. That you still get all the magic of Rock Band - just so happens that chart was made by someone else.

    Without pro mode, RBN tracks will be second-class going forward. The divide between "official" and RBN will become much larger than it is now. Some artists won't care and will be happy with RBN, but others will want their music to get the "full" Rock Band treatment, no longer a possibility through RBN.

    Consumers, too, may be less likely to buy RBN tracks, knowing that they don't have many of the RB3 features they've come to know and love.

    Needless to say, I'm curious to see where it goes from here.
  • kingtonyxkingtonyx Unofficial
    edited June 2010
    HelloMaster;3752423 said:
    It's tough. On the one hand, T-Hybrid is absolutely right. Pro on RBN is risky business. It stands the chance of alienating the volunteer QA team, many of whom have purchased costly XNA memberships for the sole purpose of being testers. Plus, it's a huge bear on the charting companies, who now have to design that many more charts. It also gets to the point that music knowledge will factor in.

    BUT, by not supporting Pro in RBN, HMX takes the opposite risk of shooting one of its revenue streams in the foot. While "official" DLC and RBN DLC are not entirely alike in dignity, it's clear that HMX wants consumers to trust that RBN is no less of an experience. That you still get all the magic of Rock Band - just so happens that chart was made by someone else.

    Without pro mode, RBN tracks will be second-class going forward. The divide between "official" and RBN will become much larger than it is now. Some artists won't care and will be happy with RBN, but others will want their music to get the "full" Rock Band treatment, no longer a possibility through RBN.

    Consumers, too, may be less likely to buy RBN tracks, knowing that they don't have many of the RB3 features they've come to know and love.

    Needless to say, I'm curious to see where it goes from here.
    Yeah, you pretty much nailed what I was thinking.
  • HelloMasterHelloMaster Opening Act
    edited June 2010
    kingtonyx;3752554 said:
    Yeah, you pretty much nailed what I was thinking.
    Thanks. I just realized that in all my blabber, I more restated the OP than addressed it. Sorry about that.

    For the reason I stated above, I think RBN should support Pro, but that this will certainly slow down RBN releases, at least at first. The charting companies will get more comfortable with it, the playtesters will get more comfortable with it. Everything will get up to speed, but it'll take time. Fortunately, a lot of that time won't be missed by the players anyway, because they'll be headfirst in the game proper. After all, the customers have to learn and embrace this stuff, too.

    I wonder if HMX plans to change its DLC pricing. Looking at it altogether - harmonies, keyboard, pro charts - that's a lot more content for the same two bucks a song.
  • LuigiHannLuigiHann Stormtrooper
    edited June 2010
    I can't imagine that Harmonix hasn't thought about this a ton during whatever huge amount of time when they were secretly working on RB3 and RBN at the same time. At least, I assume they weren't keeping the teams secret from each other
  • SirDavidTLynchSirDavidTLynch Headliner
    edited June 2010
    HelloMaster;3752747 said:
    I wonder if HMX plans to change its DLC pricing. Looking at it altogether - harmonies, keyboard, pro charts - that's a lot more content for the same two bucks a song.
    The Beatles: Rock Band had harmonies, dreamscapes, and possibly the expensive, painstaking filtering process they used for the older disc songs. On top of that, the songs themselves are more expensive to license in the first place, so I don't think we'll have to worry too much. I think the bulk of the cost is still getting the rights to the music.
  • weirdphilweirdphil Road Warrior
    edited June 2010
    They can't just hit up tabcrawler? :p

    I don't think the use of, or lack of, Pro mode in RBN songs will be a deal-breaker. At least not until a large amount of people have the new guitar controllers.
    Would still be awesome for Drum Pro on existing content though.
  • Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Road Warrior
    edited June 2010
    weirdphil;3752883 said:
    They can't just hit up tabcrawler? :p

    I don't think the use of, or lack of, Pro mode in RBN songs will be a deal-breaker. At least not until a large amount of people have the new guitar controllers.
    Would still be awesome for Drum Pro on existing content though.
    Also, I believe the informal polls and such suggest that Expert play is a minority. That Medium is the most common. So the thought that there would be a significant amount of lost sales based on a game mode we know next to nothing about is a bit premature.

    I mean, I can say that I'm not very likely to buy a new guitar peripheral. Especially if they're more than, say, $50. I spent $100 for the Gretsch controller. I don't need another one no matter what technical benefit it might have. So I'd probably never even touch Pro Mode.

    The thing that would prevent me from buying DLC, RBN or otherwise, is if I don't like the song. As it is, I'm indifferent to the keyboards right now.
  • GeneralGilliamGeneralGilliam Opening Act
    edited June 2010
    I'm not sure if this new stuff in the RBN is actually a good idea now that I think about it. This will make the song take MUCH longer to author, and MUUUUCH longer to peer review. This will probably cause 80MSP songs to start becoming more and more rare, while 240MSP songs simultaneously become more and more common.

    Right now a BIG appeal of the RBN is that it's generally cheaper than DLC. You can a lot of times get two awesome songs for the price of 1. Without this factor I couldn't see the RBN doing to well.
  • weirdphilweirdphil Road Warrior
    edited June 2010
    That is a good point to make here. The more work required to put out RBN tracks, the more expensive they are likely going to become. With that in mind, I would be happy even if the RBN tracks did not support Pro Modes.
  • KariodudeKariodude Road Warrior
    edited June 2010
    From what I know most authors chart by ear. (Duh) and most of them don't actually have that much knowledge of actually reading music. If they actually require us to chart 25 key keyboard parts and Pro Guitar, I'll be out of the RBN for good.

    This isn't a "you better not spring this on me" post, it's a "man I hope they don't do this to me" post.
  • GeneralGilliamGeneralGilliam Opening Act
    edited June 2010
    Kariodude;3757582 said:
    From what I know most authors chart by ear. (Duh) and most of them don't actually have that much knowledge of actually reading music. If they actually require us to chart 25 key keyboard parts and Pro Guitar, I'll be out of the RBN for good.

    This isn't a "you better not spring this on me" post, it's a "man I hope they don't do this to me" post.
    I agree, most authors wouldn't even be able to meet these new standards since they have no or very little experience with the instruments they are authoring in real life. I personally can play a real guitar, bass, drum kit, and keyboards and read sheet music and tabs, so for the most part I'd be fine, but I doubt theres a huge number of authors who can do all that.
  • MithinMithin Unsigned
    edited June 2010
    I agree with most of the above posters.

    Personally I'd love to see partial Pro support for RBN. In that, I mean drums (which are most likely based off of drum animations and essentially add little to no more effort than currently needed to author) and new peripherals.

    I don't think RBN missing guitar/bass PRO and Keyboard PRO will affect downloads however a lack of Keyboard support and harmonies definitely will.

    So long as we have support for a 5 lane keyboard, 3 harmonies, and (if based off animations or a simple queue in the midi file) drums. I'll be more than happy with RBN 2.0
  • MarklefordMarkleford Opening Act
    edited June 2010
    Oh come on, let's not give up yet. Even authors without real music skills must muddle through to chart proper pitch for vocals, so why not for keys as well?

    Otherwise, I guess I should happily prepare myself to be a hired-gun for all the Pro Mode work that authors will be avoiding in the future! ;)

    - m
  • GeneralGilliamGeneralGilliam Opening Act
    edited June 2010
    Markleford;3757885 said:
    Oh come on, let's not give up yet. Even authors without real music skills must muddle through to chart proper pitch for vocals, so why not for keys as well?

    Otherwise, I guess I should happily prepare myself to be a hired-gun for all the Pro Mode work that authors will be avoiding in the future! ;)

    - m
    Not really, they just hire someone else to do it...or just make a bad chart *cough* Fat Kid *cough*.

    Same.
  • Alvarado6411Alvarado6411 Dethbringer
    edited June 2010
    Hey guys, have you guys thought that maybe the EMI songs are being delayed because they might have keyboard implementation?
  • KariodudeKariodude Road Warrior
    edited June 2010
    I really doubt it. From what we've heard, anything new in RB3 that will be made available to chart through RBN won't be made available to us until late in the year after RB3 comes out. Other than that, we have no other information. I also really doubt that Harmonix would only tell a few authors something that would effect all of the RBN authors.
  • LoopyChewLoopyChew Wordsmith
    edited June 2010
    My personal question is: will RBN 2.0 content be backward-compatible with RBN 1.0 (i.e., will we be able to play RBN 2.0 content in RB2)? And will we be able to author for RBN 1.0 if we so desire (which makes a bit more sense if the answer to the first question is "no")?
  • LoopyChewLoopyChew Wordsmith
    edited June 2010
    ...also, does anyone else think Guitar Expert Pro charting will directly influence the character model now? While drums still get a bit of leeway with multiple cymbal roles (yellow = hi-hat, second crash, right stick of a flam), it's hard to argue that "strum low E fret 7" can be interpreted any other way.
  • macamaticmacamatic Road Warrior
    edited June 2010
    Mithin;3757815 said:
    (which are most likely based off of drum animations and essentially add little to no more effort than currently needed to author)
    False. I've explained this in another topic about Pro mode and cymbals, but the cymbal vs. tom data is definitely separate from the animation.

    That said, it'd still not really any more work. I'm not familiar with Reaper, but I really doubt setting a flag with something you already know would be very difficult.
  • Alonzo1948Alonzo1948 Rising Star
    edited June 2010
    While I think the RBN will offer the authors to create stuff for PRO, I don’t think most of them will take full advantage of the feature. I think that it would take at least a year after RB3 for people to take full advantage of the new RBN features because of the time it would take to get used to the features in the first place.

    I do think, however, that harmonies and keyboards will be charted for the RBN after release. Harmonies shouldn’t be too much of a problem from a technical standpoint and I don’t think authors would want to alienate an entire instrument from their song unless there wasn’t a part for it.
  • Coach ZCoach Z Opening Act
    edited June 2010
    Alvarado6411;3758266 said:
    Hey guys, have you guys thought that maybe the EMI songs are being delayed because they might have keyboard implementation?
    My personal theory is that once EMI saw RBN sales figures in the low thousands, as opposed to tens of thousands (a la "Dirty Little Secret"), they figured it wasn't worth it. Thirty or sixty cents per song doesn't go very far when you pay entertainment attorneys $400 an hour.

    I look at it as a self-fulfilling prophecy - without the "Dancing With Myself" caliber hits, there isn't a whole lot of momentum to draw people into the RBN store.
  • Starfleet_RamboStarfleet_Rambo Headliner
    edited June 2010
    HMX should designate some peeps to do Pro Mode on RBN songs themselves.

    Songs get sent to HMX from RBN authors for final approval, then the HMX-RBN Pro Crew slap on the Pro Guitar & Bass modes. Profit!
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