Harmonix, please do right by us re: RBN pro drums

CaptainObliviousCaptainOblivious Unsigned
edited November 2010 in The Rock Band Network
We all know early RBN songs have uncharted pro drum tracks. We all understand the technical reasons why re-releasing these songs is not a good option. However, since I became aware of this issue I've been unwilling to spend my money on the RBN.

Sure there are threads listing proper charts, but I'd have to summon the updated list on a device other than my gaming console each time. Worse, the existing RBN songs in my library are by default indistinguishable from normal DLC and disc songs to the point I will forget I'm picking a song that will force me to stop the entire band to re-choose my chart.

Put most simply, the game is broken.

Harmonix, this is YOUR problem, not the RBN developers. Find a solution of some kind. I don't know; load reworked charts into your next title update, or offer existing purchasers fixed song downloads for free or minimal coverage cost - or anything at all that fixes this issue.

Until then, I'm probably not the only one skipping on the RBN purchases.

It's harsh crit, but I love you guys. Do right by us, and keep rockin'!

Comments

  • Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Road Warrior
    edited November 2010
    captainoblivious;4163846 said:
    harmonix, this is your problem, not the rbn developers. Find a solution of some kind. I don't know; load reworked charts into your next title update, or offer existing purchasers fixed song downloads for free or minimal coverage cost - or anything at all that fixes this issue.
    Hahahahaha! Hahaha! Heeheeheehee! Haaahaaahaaahaaa! Snort!
    captainoblivious;4163846 said:
    until then, i'm probably not the only one skipping on the rbn purchases.

    It's harsh crit, but i love you guys. Do right by us, and keep rockin'!
    Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya!
  • Starfleet_RamboStarfleet_Rambo Headliner
    edited November 2010
    Somebody needs to fix my non-Pro mode RBN songs damn it!!!

    Whether for free or take my monies, I gotta have ALL songs properly charted so I don't have to exclude mah RBN babies from setlists!!!!
  • macamaticmacamatic Road Warrior
    edited November 2010
    All I want is for it to distinguish which songs have Pro Drums. I don't mind playing them in regular mode, but it shouldn't pretend they have pro charts.
  • jessurugijessurugi Unsigned
    edited November 2010
    There are several songs that are irritating on Pro-drums because of this. "Complexity of Light" and "The Attitude Song" suffer pretty bad. What others should I avoid until a fix happens?
  • Starfleet_RamboStarfleet_Rambo Headliner
    edited November 2010
    jessurugi;4166717 said:
    There are several songs that are irritating on Pro-drums because of this. "Complexity of Light" and "The Attitude Song" suffer pretty bad. What others should I avoid until a fix happens?

    All of them!!

    I can't stand playing any RBN song in pro mode if it ain't right.
  • LuigiHannLuigiHann Stormtrooper
    edited November 2010
    jessurugi;4166717 said:
    There are several songs that are irritating on Pro-drums because of this. "Complexity of Light" and "The Attitude Song" suffer pretty bad. What others should I avoid until a fix happens?

    This is a work-in-progress list of songs that are "good," charted with Pro Drums: http://www.rockband.com/forums/showthread.php?203264-RBN-Songs-With-Pro-Drums

    Anything not on that list, I would avoid for now
  • trimarkk76trimarkk76 Opening Act
    edited November 2010
    I have seen in some RBN songs the drummer hitting the pads instead of the cymbals in some occasions where a cymbal was charted and a tom was heard in the song. Could HMX make a patch to read the animation input and change the gems on the fly for the chart ? (Just a thought)
  • kiggidykevkiggidykev Thinks about pandas
    edited November 2010
    murph;4164412 said:
    so because the old songs are broken, you are not going to purchase any of the newer, 100% working RBN tracks? way to support the RBN authors.

    Haha, no kidding.
  • Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Road Warrior
    edited November 2010
    trimarkk76;4168843 said:
    I have seen in some RBN songs the drummer hitting the pads instead of the cymbals in some occasions where a cymbal was charted and a tom was heard in the song. Could HMX make a patch to read the animation input and change the gems on the fly for the chart ? (Just a thought)

    No.

    It doesn't work this way.

    HMX does not have any real input on what gets charted.

    Some songs simply are charted 'incorrectly' for Pro.

    The fix is a whole new chart to approve and purchase.

    There can be no updates from HMX to 'fix' this non-issue.

    If you want a Pro drum compatible version of a song, then contact either or both the chart group and the artist to encourage them to resubmit.
  • NoThru22NoThru22 Road Warrior
    edited November 2010
    Santa Claustrophobia;4168887 said:
    No.

    It doesn't work this way.

    HMX does not have any real input on what gets charted.

    Some songs simply are charted 'incorrectly' for Pro.

    The fix is a whole new chart to approve and purchase.

    There can be no updates from HMX to 'fix' this non-issue.

    If you want a Pro drum compatible version of a song, then contact either or both the chart group and the artist to encourage them to resubmit.
    Harmonix makes the charting rules.

    Songs are not charted "incorrectly" for pro, they're not charted at all.

    It's not a "non-issue" just because you don't care about it.
  • Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Road Warrior
    edited November 2010
    NoThru22;4168994 said:
    Harmonix makes the charting rules.

    Songs are not charted "incorrectly" for pro, they're not charted at all.

    It's not a "non-issue" just because you don't care about it.

    HMX makes the rules and then backs off. They have no 'real' input on what charters choose to do within those rules.

    Not being charted for Pro does not change that people don't seem to understand that the songs weren't charted for Pro and demanding free fixes. And those quote marks? Meant to show that the word was not, in fact, accurate in context.

    And it's a non-issue because it's not a bug. HMX cannot do anything about it even if they wanted to. The solution is, instead of pestering HMX repeatedly for a fix they can't provide, to contact the charting groups and artists to encourage them to re-release the songs using the updated charting techniques that became available later.

    It's a non-issue because the songs still work as originally charted, but they weren't charted for a feature they didn't know existed.

    I never said I didn't care.


    Best part? Even if songs get recharted, there will still be a hundred more threads from people demanding to know why they have to pay for an update^H^H^H^H^H^H re-release to a song they already bought. So that'll be fun, hey?
  • Flan26Flan26 Road Warrior
    edited November 2010
    This instance is the ONLY time the PS3 has an advantage for RBN. I don't download 99% of the crap we get, and the two songs that did come up in the RBN Random Setlist Road Challenge ("Semi-Charmed Life" by Third Eye Blind and "The Mob Goes Wild" by Clutch) were charted properly for Pro Drums. PS3 FTW!

    And since I mentioned it, that Road Challenge is actually a pretty cool idea - integrating RBN into the PS3 core gameplay.
  • Flan26Flan26 Road Warrior
    edited November 2010
    Also to the OP, yeah... it's not gonna happen. If Harmonix can't patch legacy DLC, they're certainly not going to do anything for third-party authored content.

    It would have been nice if HMX had "suggested" to the authors that they should chart for accuracy, but I guess they didn't want to tip their hand that they had Pro Mode coming when RBN launched.
  • NoThru22NoThru22 Road Warrior
    edited November 2010
    Santa Claustrophobia;4169111 said:
    HMX makes the rules and then backs off. They have no 'real' input on what charters choose to do within those rules.

    Not being charted for Pro does not change that people don't seem to understand that the songs weren't charted for Pro and demanding free fixes. And those quote marks? Meant to show that the word was not, in fact, accurate in context.

    And it's a non-issue because it's not a bug. HMX cannot do anything about it even if they wanted to. The solution is, instead of pestering HMX repeatedly for a fix they can't provide, to contact the charting groups and artists to encourage them to re-release the songs using the updated charting techniques that became available later.

    It's a non-issue because the songs still work as originally charted, but they weren't charted for a feature they didn't know existed.

    I never said I didn't care.


    Best part? Even if songs get recharted, there will still be a hundred more threads from people demanding to know why they have to pay for an update^H^H^H^H^H^H re-release to a song they already bought. So that'll be fun, hey?
    It could be corrected several different ways, but it probably won't be. That doesn't mean that we can't complain about it. The game could have an updating list of songs without pro mode and gray them out when you sort by pro drum scores, but that probably won't happen.

    Harmonix is also listening to feedback and adjusting rules on the fly.

    I am angry that PS3 gets better quality RBN tracks than us. :P
  • trimarkk76trimarkk76 Opening Act
    edited November 2010
    HMX was already charting Pro-Drums before RB2 came out and when they released RBN they knew the charters could not chart pro-Drums until later on.

    My question is: why would HMX not make a "thing" to be able to reconsider non Pro-Drums charting ? Because I think it's their mistake.

    And I would love to have all the non Pro-Drums songs be re-charted so I could by them again because I have a 4 cymbals setup and I have been playing with the correct cymbals (by sound) since January 2009.

    So I guess I will have to email some people... :)
  • DavyinaTogaDavyinaToga Road Warrior
    edited November 2010
    The one thing that bothers me is that MS doesn't seem to ban updates to their indie games. The ones that come in through the XNA Framework, the very basis of the RBN pipeline. Several of my Indie games have updates. This is why I don't understand the lack of update ability.
  • Starfleet_RamboStarfleet_Rambo Headliner
    edited November 2010
    I have a setlist called "No Pro Mode, Bro" for my RBN songs I can't play with 500+ other songs I got. :(
  • raynebcraynebc Road Warrior
    edited November 2010
    NoThru22;4169203 said:
    The game could have an updating list of songs without pro mode and gray them out when you sort by pro drum scores, but that probably won't happen.

    This is the most feasible way to handle it, but the amount of peer review needed can be reduced by automatically considering a chart as having pro drums if it has tom notation. The peer review is needed to see if the other charts just didn't chart with pro notation at all, or if it actually has no tom notes on purpose.
  • gta_birdgta_bird Unsigned
    edited November 2010
    my $0.02. Neither am i purchasing any RBN songs that are not charted for Pro Drums. And i feel that isnt right to the RBN artist and authors. But im not paying for songs that are partially compatible with my game.
  • LuigiHannLuigiHann Stormtrooper
    edited November 2010
    I still feel like the best solution for this would be to patch RB3 to check for tom notes, and if there are zero tom notes, change Pro Drums to "No Part" for that song. Sure, there are some cases both coincidental and intentional where the song really just doesn't have any toms in it, but I feel like a small handful of false negatives would be much better than the 500+ false positives we have right now.
  • a_jacya_jacy Unsigned
    edited November 2010
    It will be interesting to see how HMX handles the "missing DLC week" content in the regular store (dinosaur jr / tenacious D)... because presumably something was messed up in the coding or whatever of that week of songs, for it to not appear in RB3. My guess is it will be a TITLE update as they cannot touch the original DLC and update it in anyway without requiring a repurchase (my guess, I don't know).... i suppose when they fix that we will know if they really can "fix" past DLC or not. My guess is we won't see those songs appear until we get a title update and the DLC will be untouched.

    If RBN is missing pro charts its pretty clear you will need to re-purchase. It's a limitation of the entire system, it seems.And now you have a mis-match between versions, etc even if you could update (hence: "RB3" version for bon jovi) for leaderboards etc. and it needs a whole new chart...

    So, i guess you just have to deal with it. I presume some songs will be re-released when RBN2.0 comes out with keyboards and harmonies, and then the pro charts will be fixed as well... but you'll still have to re-purchase the tracks.
  • sozozososozozoso Opening Act
    edited November 2010
    Broken.. it's becoming a very irritating word. Is it the new "cool" word to use? how many times do I have to see it misused.
  • Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Road Warrior
    edited November 2010
    a_jacy;4177064 said:
    It will be interesting to see how HMX handles the "missing DLC week" content in the regular store (dinosaur jr / tenacious D)... because presumably something was messed up in the coding or whatever of that week of songs, for it to not appear in RB3. My guess is it will be a TITLE update as they cannot touch the original DLC and update it in anyway without requiring a repurchase (my guess, I don't know).... i suppose when they fix that we will know if they really can "fix" past DLC or not. My guess is we won't see those songs appear until we get a title update and the DLC will be untouched.

    Actually, it's possible that these 'missing' songs can just be fixed by being updated for re-download. They've done it before to fix data that was incorrect but didn't affect the charts themselves.
  • ThatAuthoringGroupThatAuthoringGroup Numero Uno Super **** Fanboy #1
    edited November 2010
    You guys saying that HMX started charting Pro drums recently is a false assumption right?

    The pro drum mode uses drum animation data that is placed in the drummer animation slots. Telling the drummer to hit a hi hat, tom, cymbal, crash, etc. It's THIS information that the game uses to determine if the yellow, blue and green on screen graphics should be a pad or cymbal.

    There was no going in and recharting things from HMX, nor did they just start doing it out of the blue and not tell us in RBN. Why do you think that songs all the way from RB1 have pro drums in them? Did you think that HMX honestly went back and recharted 1500+ songs? No. The info on how to make this happen was always being used. HMX just had to figure out a program that would use pre-existing data to display the differences when you picked pro.

    We were made aware (although a bit late in the game...early summer I think) that this is how it was going to work.

    So to the best of our ability we've been trying to make sure any new songs were pro drum compatible. However with RBN1.0 there is no way for us to see or test if the songs are using pro mode correctly. AND HMX didn't require that songs get charted with PRO drums. They said it's there if you want to use it use it.
  • Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Road Warrior
    edited November 2010
    I could have sworn that the 'drum animation as chart' stuff has been debunked over and over.
  • NoThru22NoThru22 Road Warrior
    edited November 2010
    ThatAuthoringGroup;4177438 said:
    You guys saying that HMX started charting Pro drums recently is a false assumption right?

    The pro drum mode uses drum animation data that is placed in the drummer animation slots. Telling the drummer to hit a hi hat, tom, cymbal, crash, etc. It's THIS information that the game uses to determine if the yellow, blue and green on screen graphics should be a pad or cymbal.

    There was no going in and recharting things from HMX, nor did they just start doing it out of the blue and not tell us in RBN. Why do you think that songs all the way from RB1 have pro drums in them? Did you think that HMX honestly went back and recharted 1500+ songs? No. The info on how to make this happen was always being used. HMX just had to figure out a program that would use pre-existing data to display the differences when you picked pro.

    We were made aware (although a bit late in the game...early summer I think) that this is how it was going to work.

    So to the best of our ability we've been trying to make sure any new songs were pro drum compatible. However with RBN1.0 there is no way for us to see or test if the songs are using pro mode correctly. AND HMX didn't require that songs get charted with PRO drums. They said it's there if you want to use it use it.
    Actually, there were hundreds of updated drum midis discovered in the files on the Rock Band 3 disc.
    Santa Claustrophobia;4177632 said:
    I could have sworn that the 'drum animation as chart' stuff has been debunked over and over.
    I think he's claiming that they used that data to extrapolate new charts, not that the game looks at the animation data for the chart on the fly.
  • ThatAuthoringGroupThatAuthoringGroup Numero Uno Super **** Fanboy #1
    edited November 2010
    That's exactly what I'm saying.

    HMX came up with a program for RB3 that looks at the animation data and when you choose pro drums, it uses that data to decide if the yellow pad should be a cymbal or the old rectangle note.

    We don't go in and chart a drum chart and a pro drum chart. It's just one chart.

    That's why some of the charts are messed up in Pro drums.

    If you messed up telling the animation section what to hit, it could appear as the tom instead of a cymbal.
  • NoThru22NoThru22 Road Warrior
    edited November 2010
    Noble, you're still wrong. The game does not look at the animation data for charts at all.
  • ThatAuthoringGroupThatAuthoringGroup Numero Uno Super **** Fanboy #1
    edited November 2010
    Are you sure?

    Then how does the game update RBN charts with pro drums when we haven't done anything different to the charts.
  • NoThru22NoThru22 Road Warrior
    edited November 2010
    ThatAuthoringGroup;4178233 said:
    Are you sure?

    Then how does the game update RBN charts with pro drums when we haven't done anything different to the charts.
    It doesn't! You have to overlay tom gems in the chart midis. http://creators.rockband.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5306 Who is doing drum charting for TAG?
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