Rocksmith & Rocksmith 2014 discussion thread

Comments

  • Heavens_SaintHeavens_Saint Rising Star
    edited April 2011
    SheSaidSheSaid;4371933 said:
    That English is clearly not your first language.

    That's all. Nothing more, and nothing less.

    Thanks.
  • RednazRednaz Road Warrior
    edited April 2011
    Heavens_Saint;4371908 said:
    Peoples thoughts?

    First, this is old news. Second, from the videos I've seen the "gameplay" looks terrible and confusing. It looks like it would only be good for someone who already has experience with guitar. Plus, from those videos and statements it doesn't look like the game visually nor audibly tells you if you've missed something, and the "auto difficulty" doesn't count. That just sounds terrible. If I want to practice a song I want at least most control over what I'm practicing, not something that changes the song mid game to something simpler. If I want simpler I'll reduce difficulty or change songs.
  • skyttskyttskyttskytt Headliner
    edited April 2011
    Heavens_Saint;4371919 said:
    but it offers a better way to "Learn" real Guitar if you want

    Explain how it is better.
  • Bosco32Bosco32 Road Warrior
    edited April 2011
    I plan on trying Rocksmith, and I play Pro Guitar on RB3. There are clearly going to be some big trade-offs in Rocksmith to get to play an existing guitar that RB3 doesn't have to contend with. FIrst of all, as mentioned above, RB3 offers realtime hand placement feedback that this game won't. The second, probably bigger issue, is that the game seems to listen to the notes being played, meaning if the song isn't in standard tuning, that'll be a bit of a pain to pick up and play.

    I'm excited to try it, but I would be wary before deciding that this is going to be a better/friendlier system than Pro Guitar.
  • SirDavidTLynchSirDavidTLynch Headliner
    edited April 2011
    Heavens_Saint;4371932 said:
    You know, that's ironic coming from you.
    He may come off as a douche, but at least he does so in a way that contributes to the topic at hand.

    Without the sensors, the game can't show you where your fingers are (by the way, I can't find any gameplay videos that might prove me wrong). Apparently the guitar tracks aren't separated, so the notes don't cut out when you miss. So you're looking down at the guitar to see what you're doing, but you can't hear what you're doing, so you don't know how well you're playing.

    Also, there's no bass.
  • Heavens_SaintHeavens_Saint Rising Star
    edited April 2011
    skyttskytt;4371946 said:
    Explain how it is better.

    Some people may find using there own Guitar better than using a Guitar they've just bought.
  • skyttskyttskyttskytt Headliner
    edited April 2011
    Heavens_Saint;4371958 said:
    Some people may find using there own Guitar better than using a Guitar they've just bought.

    That's better from a consumer standpoint, but it doesn't make the game a better teaching tool.
  • Heavens_SaintHeavens_Saint Rising Star
    edited April 2011
    SirDavidTLynch;4371950 said:
    He may come off as a douche, but at least he does so in a way that contributes to the topic at hand.

    Without the sensors, the game can't show you where your fingers are (by the way, I can't find any gameplay videos that might prove me wrong). Apparently the guitar tracks aren't separated, so the notes don't cut out when you miss. So you're looking down at the guitar to see what you're doing, but you can't hear what you're doing, so you don't know how well you're playing.

    Also, there's no bass.
    Oh, well I read that the game can try teach you songs, without you even looking at the screen, so they must have something up their sleeve. Like, they will probably make some sort of "Noise" to let you know when you haven't hit the right fret/note, etc. And if you go onto the site Gametrailers, there's gameplay up there of people playing.
  • RednazRednaz Road Warrior
    edited April 2011
    Heavens_Saint;4371958 said:
    Some people may find using there own Guitar better than using a Guitar they've just bought.

    That's a terrible explanation. Saying "some" people is not a reason.
  • LiveHomeVideoLiveHomeVideo Trying too hard
    edited April 2011
    There's already a discussion of this in Less Rokk More Talk. Mods, [emotion="badass"]LOCK THIS THREAD![/emotion]
  • SirDavidTLynchSirDavidTLynch Headliner
    edited April 2011
    Heavens_Saint;4371963 said:
    And if you go onto the site Gametrailers, there's gameplay up there of people playing.
    Link or it didn't happen; I'm not going to run around to another site for what may be videos I've already seen of people talking about the game instead of showing anything
    LiveHomeVideo;4371969 said:
    There's already a discussion of this in Less Rokk More Talk. Mods, [emotion="badass"]LOCK THIS THREAD![/emotion]
    This too.
  • Heavens_SaintHeavens_Saint Rising Star
    edited April 2011
    SirDavidTLynch;4371971 said:
    Link or it didn't happen; I'm not going to run around to another site for what may be videos I've already seen of people talking about the game instead of showing anything

    This too.

    http://www.gametrailers.com/video/sxsw-trailer-rocksmith/713044
  • Catch-22Catch-22 Road Warrior
    edited April 2011
    Heavens_Saint;4371963 said:
    Oh, well I read that the game can try teach you songs, without you even looking at the screen, so they must have something up their sleeve. Like, they will probably make some sort of "Noise" to let you know when you haven't hit the right fret/note, etc. And if you go onto the site Gametrailers, there's gameplay up there of people playing.

    Right you heard, you haven't seen anything, there's no hands on previews available except by mainstream journalists that wouldn't be able to critic a preview to save their life. I've seen their hype piece and it shows nothing informative and doesn't do a thing to explain how the game works and what it can and can't do. So far Rocksmith is all PR hype just like Powergig was and that worked out really well.
  • raynebcraynebc Road Warrior
    edited April 2011
    That trailer has been talked about for a couple days now, but there are multiple factual inaccuracies in the interviews included, such as "you can put any guitar into it" (you can only connect a guitar that has a quarter inch plug, they don't recommend acoustic guitars even when they have the quarter inch plug, they don't work with bass guitar, etc) and the now famous "I like video games, I like music... When they go together and there's a real guitar involved, that's new. That's something that isn't out there..." quote at the end.
  • MofoMan2000MofoMan2000 Rising Star
    edited April 2011
    I'd be a little excited about RockSmith if I wasn't so sure it'd be PowerGIG 2.

    That is all…
  • LiveHomeVideoLiveHomeVideo Trying too hard
    edited April 2011
    raynebc;4371980 said:
    That trailer has been talked about for a couple days now, but there are multiple factual inaccuracies in the interviews included, such as "you can put any guitar into it" (you can only connect a guitar that has a quarter inch plug, they don't recommend acoustic guitars even when they have the quarter inch plug, they don't work with bass guitar, etc) and the now famous "I like video games, I like music... When they go together and there's a real guitar involved, that's new. That's something that isn't out there..." quote at the end.

    My sentiment exactly (dammit! If only my aunt would stop watching Mamma Mia!). Companies that fail to mention the existence of a competition may fail epically. Look at Power Gig.



    My opinion of the video:
    It does look interesting, but even if I had this game, I'd be playing my 5-button a little more, just because I enjoy interacting with the music I listen to with others while doing something I'm actually good at, and guitar does take a lot of practice. Besides, Rock Band is better for a party setting. And I haven't seen one metal song in Rock Smith so far.
  • RednazRednaz Road Warrior
    edited April 2011
    Heavens_Saint;4371973 said:

    Terrible video is terrible. While it did show some gameplay (about 40 seconds), the rest of the video was useless and false. "This is so much better then pressing buttons" - No ****. Can they say anything more obvious? How about they just say its not compatible with 5 button guitars? Half of that video was unneeded, and the rest except the gameplay was insulting to watch. Of course they wouldn't mention RB3 pro guitar, no, we want to lie to our fanbase in the comparisons like Power Gig!

    The gameplay itself...That looks annoying. Why do the things have to rotate?
  • Funk-n-steinFunk-n-stein Rising Star
    edited April 2011
    I want to believe that Rocksmith will be as good as Ubisoft is hyping it to be, but in the meantime, I have an actual working product that I think works very well. Additionally, I have a hard time seeing how any competitor without the sensors in the fretboard will be as good of a learning tool.

    What is the supposed release date for rocksmith anyway?
  • hakko504hakko504 Rising Star
    edited April 2011
    Funk-n-stein;4371993 said:
    What is the supposed release date for rocksmith anyway?
    September '11
  • Doom878Doom878 Road Warrior
    edited April 2011
    Too much speculation based off one clip. Maybe we should wait for more details and footage before we troll both companies.
  • SayburrSayburr The Always Informative Rock Band Forum Guru
    edited April 2011
    Funk-n-stein;4371993 said:
    Additionally, I have a hard time seeing how any competitor without the sensors in the fretboard will be as good of a learning tool.
    Not only that, but because of the fretboard sensors, the guitar does not have to be intune... I wonder if this new game will start missing notes when the guitar is not in tune.
  • WitticusWitticus VERY DEEP
    edited April 2011
    Sayburr;4372471 said:
    Not only that, but because of the fretboard sensors, the guitar does not have to be intune... I wonder if this new game will start missing notes when the guitar is not in tune.

    I'm betting so. When you factor in that you can use most guitars for this game, there has to be a whole swarm of limitations and problems. However I'm betting the game will tell you if your guitar is out of tune when it happens.
  • tnevakertnevaker Road Warrior
    edited April 2011
    DMBillies;4371379 said:
    In fairness, Rocksmith used a 3-D representation of the notes to represent a 3-D problem (horizontal, vertical, and time). It isn't a straight horizontal scroll, but RB's notation uses chord shapes popping out of the TV to represent frets, which isn't really intuitive either.

    I think, in the end, everyone is going to have their own thoughts about what really makes the most sense. What I like about Rocksmith is that the notes light up on the fret board exactly mirrored to where your hand needs to be... and your fret board is static in real life.

    Honestly, I'd need a few hours with any kind of notation to really decide what I like best. What I do know is that I've spent some hours with RB's and I'm still having a lot of confusion, which makes me quite certain some other notation would be better. I could assume that HMX did that testing and chose the best option, but I also could assume that some practical limitations played into the final decision (e.g., fitting it into the screen space for a full band).

    This is all why I keep coming back to allowing us to have options...

    the chord shapes in RB3 are terrible, but that's mitigated by having the option to turn on chord numbering. though they should have just made chord numbering the standard default. i can't imagine many people find the chord shape notation useful without it.

    judging from what is shown of the gameplay in the last video, this has the same problem. you've got a bunch of gems coming down at you, but there are no numbers attached to them. so you have to wait til they're practically hitting that static fretboard before you know exactly which fret and string the gem is going to "hit" and therefore which fret on which string to play. that might be ok at simpler levels where you've only got a few notes per second to figure out, but what happens when you hit a fairly complex melody or solo and you've got 20 notes coming at you, trying to figure out where to play each of those notes? there's a reason they showed such easy charts in that video. if they showed the "expert" charts for any of those songs, people would be scared off, and rightly so. try to imagine that "house of the rising sun" chart if instead of just firing a chord form at you every couple seconds, you had the actual arpeggio notes coming to you at full song speed. i don't see how it would be readable at all with that kind of chart.

    i was really hoping this game would be good, because i'd definitely like to be able to use one of my much nicer guitars on a game like this. but unless they have a similar "note/chord numbering" option like RB3 and just aren't showing it in the video, this game with those charts would be useless it would be more frustrating trying to read those flying gems with no notation associated with them then it is trying to read the really fast solos at 70% speed in RB3, where at least you have the fret numbers and breakneck speed to help and make it a little more readable. unless there's more to the game than what they've shown so far in those videos, i'd have to pass on this, but i'll reserve my judgment until i hear some independent reviews and see more gameplay with a better description of all the options and features. what i've seen so far however, has dashed my hopes for this game quite a bit.
  • lvmathemagicianlvmathemagician Road Warrior
    edited April 2011
    tnevaker;4372582 said:
    the chord shapes in RB3 are terrible, but that's mitigated by having the option to turn on chord numbering. though they should have just made chord numbering the standard default. i can't imagine many people find the chord shape notation useful without it.

    judging from what is shown of the gameplay in the last video, this has the same problem. you've got a bunch of gems coming down at you, but there are no numbers attached to them. so you have to wait til they're practically hitting that static fretboard before you know exactly which fret and string the gem is going to "hit" and therefore which fret on which string to play. that might be ok at simpler levels where you've only got a few notes per second to figure out, but what happens when you hit a fairly complex melody or solo and you've got 20 notes coming at you, trying to figure out where to play each of those notes? there's a reason they showed such easy charts in that video. if they showed the "expert" charts for any of those songs, people would be scared off, and rightly so. try to imagine that "house of the rising sun" chart if instead of just firing a chord form at you every couple seconds, you had the actual arpeggio notes coming to you at full song speed. i don't see how it would be readable at all with that kind of chart.

    i was really hoping this game would be good, because i'd definitely like to be able to use one of my much nicer guitars on a game like this. but unless they have a similar "note/chord numbering" option like RB3 and just aren't showing it in the video, this game with those charts would be useless it would be more frustrating trying to read those flying gems with no notation associated with them then it is trying to read the really fast solos at 70% speed in RB3, where at least you have the fret numbers and breakneck speed to help and make it a little more readable. unless there's more to the game than what they've shown so far in those videos, i'd have to pass on this, but i'll reserve my judgment until i hear some independent reviews and see more gameplay with a better description of all the options and features. what i've seen so far however, has dashed my hopes for this game quite a bit.

    As a total noob to guitars I really don't find the chord notation to be all that helpful. I just don't know what the chord notation means and it doesn't help me find where my fingers should be. It would be helpful if RB spent more time teaching me to play music instead of just how to play the song. But it is just a game, so it's understandable.
  • DMBilliesDMBillies Road Warrior
    edited April 2011
    tnevaker;4372582 said:
    the chord shapes in RB3 are terrible, but that's mitigated by having the option to turn on chord numbering. though they should have just made chord numbering the standard default. i can't imagine many people find the chord shape notation useful without it.
    To me, it all comes down to the on-screen info representing a mirror for the movements of your hand if you want people to be able to read the notation in real-time (which is clearly what they were going for). Tilting the chart on end destroys some of that spatial alignment. Displaying time by having the notes move across a dimension your hand is actually travelling (along the fret board) hurts it some more. Having the note closest to the head of the guitar show up as the "root" of the chord and then popping notes out of the screen (i.e., up) to portray a position farther toward the body which is at the bottom of the TV, just adds to the spatial puzzle. Each of these misalignments is somewhat unnatural and each one adds to the cognitive load to just understanding what you are supposed to play.

    And I am talking in jargony terms because I'm graduating in less than a month with a Ph.D. studying visual-spatial skills and learning from video games (also why I can't just type a short and simple post). HMX's notation is really out of line with how a psychologist who is trying to communicate information for very fast processing would design the system. And my playing experience, which has only been at easy and medium difficulties, is only reinforcing that opinion (my hand is fast enough to make a lot of movements I miss because my hand either naturally goes the wrong way in response to the notation or I have to think too hard to interpret it and I show up late to the party).
    You have to wait til they're practically hitting that static fretboard before you know exactly which fret and string the gem is going to "hit" and therefore which fret on which string to play. that might be ok at simpler levels where you've only got a few notes per second to figure out, but what happens when you hit a fairly complex melody or solo and you've got 20 notes coming at you, trying to figure out where to play each of those notes? there's a reason they showed such easy charts in that video. if they showed the "expert" charts for any of those songs, people would be scared off, and rightly so. try to imagine that "house of the rising sun" chart if instead of just firing a chord form at you every couple seconds, you had the actual arpeggio notes coming to you at full song speed. i don't see how it would be readable at all with that kind of chart.
    I don't think it is reasonable to assume there is a chart design that will be readable, in real time, at full expert speed. Let me start there. It's too much info and it has to happen too fast (a problem every real guitar game is going to have to solve with really useful training modules and freely viewable charts as the fan base moves from easy and medium to hard and expert).

    The musicians playing these pieces aren't reading music, they are remembering it with a lot of practice. So, to me, the goal should be making the notation as easy to read as possible up until the theoretical breaking point where even if you understand the notation automatically, muscle memory, anticipation, and the planning of your next move are all required and the note chart is only going to serve as a reminder for transitioning between major parts of the piece. I don't fault HMX making a notation that I can't keep up with on Expert and I don't think Rocksmith's is going to do that.

    That said, Rocksmith is portraying "fret" numbers in horizontal space with notes scrolling toward the specific fret. It looks like the size of the fretboard expands to suit the size of these transitions. When they're playing "Satisfaction" on what is clearly a higher difficulty, you can see at least 8 fret lanes on the screen at the same time (which are labeled according to the dots on the guitar fretboard, even if the notes don't get their own notation) and they handle transitions that move very far along the fretboard by dynamically dimming the lanes that don't matter. For building people up from no skill, most easy charts really should only require a few frets on screen at a time ("House of the Rising Sun" only shows 4 frets). And if Rocksmith is creating a skill progression that values just sounding ok over accuracy to how the original piece is played, there are plenty of substitutions in easier guitar charts that wouldn't require huge leaps up and down the neck (something that pro charts in RB3 do even on easy levels and a choice I don't agree with if you want to make the game fun for new players).

    The only concern I have with their notation once the charts get really hard is that the strings are close together, so as the notes are coming toward the back of the neck, it will be hard to see the difference between strings (which they must have known since they use color for that too).

    For picking up and playing well (i.e., for complete newbs), I have to say I really like the Rocksmith notation. I also think it will withstand higher speeds than the same RB chart.

    The good thing I can say about RB's notation is that it probably does force you to think more about the song, which might really help with the transition to playing outside of the game. Also, because it forces you to read fret numbers, learning should transfer more easily to reading tabs on the fly. In these respects, RB3 may actually be a better trainer if your goal is playing outside the game, whereas Rocksmith may be more easy/fun to play inside the game.

    The irony, then, is that RB is more about being a fun "game" and Rocksmith is selling itself more as a "trainer for real guitar."
  • tnevakertnevaker Road Warrior
    edited April 2011
    well i can't judge it from the point of view of someone trying to learn guitar, since i already know how to play and have a lot of experience. i can only judge the notation from that point of view, and from the perspective of an experienced guitarist, that notation is just highly confusing and not as clear or easy to read as RB3. since this game is aimed at both newbies and experienced guitar players, then, it seems like they've focused on the newbs at the expense of making it readable for experienced players, which is disappointing to me. this notation may be more intuitive for someone with no playing experience, but if the goal of the game is to teach you to play guitar, then learning songs in real time by trying to match up flying gems by depending on hand-eye reaction time is not really an effective way to learn a musical instrument. i understand why RB3 did it that way, it's focus is on gaming, and it's restricted somewhat by what came before, the vertical lanes used for other instruments, etc. but if the idea behind this game is to teach guitar, unless there's a lot more to it than what we've seen, it doesn't seem to be a very good effort. there are tried-and-true approaches to learning an instrument and notating guitar music in an easy to read and understand method, but it seems like they've thrown that out the door in an attempt to "revolutionize" the learning process. maybe they will, who knows, but i doubt it. if as an experienced guitar player i'm confused looking at their charts, i can only imagine how overwhelmed it would look to someone new. and if they did learn to play through those charts, they may end up with "RB drummer" syndrome where you can play fine when you've got an RB chart coming at you, but as soon as you sit behind a real drum kit you become totally lost.
  • DMBilliesDMBillies Road Warrior
    edited April 2011
    tnevaker;4372832 said:
    well i can't judge it from the point of view of someone trying to learn guitar
    I don't really disagree with anything you said. Certainly prior experience is playing a big role in everyone's reaction to the charting methods. Someone intimate with tabs is going to want those since there's no barrier to playing. Someone not intimate with them will wonder why the high e string is at the top when it is the top string on the guitar...

    I have a little guitar experience and a good bit of 5 button experience. I kind of feel like I'm stuck somewhere in between where I want to be. I'm familiar enough with other notations that RB's system is really not intuitive and I'm not good enough on guitar to be able learn the song quickly and start to largely ignore the chart (which is what I think a lot of advanced guitar players are doing).
    tnevaker;4372832 said:
    if they did learn to play through those charts, they may end up with "RB drummer" syndrome where you can play fine when you've got an RB chart coming at you, but as soon as you sit behind a real drum kit you become totally lost.
    This was the point of my last paragraph really. I think the transfer to a real instrument part is something really worth thinking about (or is, at least, something most consumers want). I wouldn't say either of these notations is particularly friendly for applying the skills you get reading them to tab outside of the game. And we may somewhat disagree on which game is going to be harder to read, but I do think that the game being hard to read at full speed would actually help people memorize the song better for playing it outside the game... once your skills have progressed to a hard/expert level. At easier levels, readability is important to reduce frustration right off the bat. After all, just getting your fingers to do what you want is frustrating enough, you can't have the notation be difficult too.

    One of the reasons drums is hard to transfer is because you can play the drums entirely based on vision with no thought of what the drums sound like as you hit the different colors/cymbals. I imagine we'll find a similar thing for keyboard, which doesn't use a standard musical notation or even really include information about what notes you're playing (at least guitar gives you chord names). I find this problem super frustrating too... because I know I am physically capable of producing 75% (or more) of the beats in this game pretty successfully at full expert, but mentally I can't do it. I've taken to putting a cardboard box in front of the hit box on the TV so I at least have to play by ear and can't immediately get the rhythm back by sight every time I botch it... but that doesn't help me memorize the chart or read drum tab notation.
  • GNFfhqwhgadsGNFfhqwhgads 99% Washed Up
    edited April 2011
    But now stuff will float when I pick stuff up near it!


    Also, good lord, the background is going to look awful.
  • dog037dog037 This Many Days Since Last Ban:
    edited April 2011
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