Rocksmith & Rocksmith 2014 discussion thread

Comments

  • RRhoadsRRhoads Unsigned
    edited June 2011
    tnevaker;4408505 said:
    i don't think you read what i wrote. i said that for most people playing this game, the audio lag will be caused by the tv or av receiver. what does plugging a guitar into a computer or sound card have to do with that?
    What's the difference? I don't get audio lag through my speakers when my guitar is connected to my soundcard. At least not any noticeable lag. I don't use digital cables from my soundcard to the amplifier though. That could have something to do with it. I don't know. All I know is my experience. I have to set my soundcard in "Audio Creation Mode" to not experience lag. I think this is where the problem is.

    I understand what you are trying to say, but think about it. If it was your audio or AV Receiver that was the problem, you would have the same problem with Rock Band.
  • RRhoadsRRhoads Unsigned
    edited June 2011
    I heard the full setlist was going to be released today.
  • tnevakertnevaker Road Warrior
    edited June 2011
    RRhoads;4408578 said:
    What's the difference? I don't get audio lag through my speakers when my guitar is connected to my soundcard. At least not any noticeable lag. I don't use digital cables from my soundcard to the amplifier though. That could have something to do with it. I don't know. All I know is my experience. I have to set my soundcard in "Audio Creation Mode" to not experience lag. I think this is where the problem is.

    I understand what you are trying to say, but think about it. If it was your audio or AV Receiver that was the problem, you would have the same problem with Rock Band.

    that's why RB and these types of games have the calibration settings. because RB only plays back pre-recorded audio files, it can easily just play those files back 30ms or however much earlier, to account for the lag. if i miss a note, it cuts the audio out, albeit 30ms late. but this game depends on the guitar signal itself to produce the sound, so it can't get by on playing pre-recorded audio a bit early to compensate for lag introduced by other parts of the system. the game has no way of anticipating what note you're going to play before you actually play it, unless they've invented some kind of special ESP function or something.

    i can still hear the audio lag in RB if i turn on drum fills. i can play with the pre-recorded drum track fine, since the calibration compensates for the audio lag. but when it goes to drum fills, the software has to wait for me to hit a note before producing a sound, so it can no longer compensate and i hear the notes 30ms after i actually hit them, which makes keeping a rhythm in time impossible for that section. the best thing about RB3 for me was that option to turn off drum fills. you can also hear the lag when someone is singing in the mic and has the in-game mic volume turned up. so the problem does exist for RB too, but to a much lesser degree, and there are workarounds that make the game playable. i don't see any possible workaround for this game, unless you turn off the in-game guitar audio completely and play through your own amp, but then that defeats the selling points of all those in-game effects and amp modes and whatnot they are advertising.
  • Doom878Doom878 Road Warrior
    edited June 2011
    RRhoads;4408578 said:
    What's the difference? I don't get audio lag through my speakers when my guitar is connected to my soundcard. At least not any noticeable lag. I don't use digital cables from my soundcard to the amplifier though. That could have something to do with it. I don't know. All I know is my experience. I have to set my soundcard in "Audio Creation Mode" to not experience lag. I think this is where the problem is.

    I understand what you are trying to say, but think about it. If it was your audio or AV Receiver that was the problem, you would have the same problem with Rock Band.
    You don't have the problem with Rock Band because of the sensors on the Squier/Mustang. If you plugged in the Rocksmith cable to a guitar and tried to play RB3 (assuming it worked) then yes latency would still be an issue. HMX knew this thus opting for game specific guitars.
  • RRhoadsRRhoads Unsigned
    edited June 2011
    tnevaker;4408616 said:
    that's why RB and these types of games have the calibration settings. because RB only plays back pre-recorded audio files, it can easily just play those files back 30ms or however much earlier, to account for the lag. if i miss a note, it cuts the audio out, albeit 30ms late. but this game depends on the guitar signal itself to produce the sound, so it can't get by on playing pre-recorded audio a bit early to compensate for lag introduced by other parts of the system. the game has no way of anticipating what note you're going to play before you actually play it, unless they've invented some kind of special ESP function or something.

    i can still hear the audio lag in RB if i turn on drum fills. i can play with the pre-recorded drum track fine, since the calibration compensates for the audio lag. but when it goes to drum fills, the software has to wait for me to hit a note before producing a sound, so it can no longer compensate and i hear the notes 30ms after i actually hit them, which makes keeping a rhythm in time impossible for that section. the best thing about RB3 for me was that option to turn off drum fills. you can also hear the lag when someone is singing in the mic and has the in-game mic volume turned up. so the problem does exist for RB too, but to a much lesser degree, and there are workarounds that make the game playable. i don't see any possible workaround for this game, unless you turn off the in-game guitar audio completely and play through your own amp, but then that defeats the selling points of all those in-game effects and amp modes and whatnot they are advertising.
    What if the signal is analog, do you think there would be delay then? Like I said, I don't get any noticeable lag between my PC and sound system when I connect my guitar there. I would be getting this game for PC anyway.

    I don't have a Mac, otherwise I would probably checked out "Garageband" which is a lot of the same thing, except it's less of a game setting. I don't hear much talk about latency there.
  • DMBilliesDMBillies Road Warrior
    edited June 2011
    Doom878;4408621 said:
    You don't have the problem with Rock Band because of the sensors on the Squier/Mustang. If you plugged in the Rocksmith cable to a guitar and tried to play RB3 (assuming it worked) then yes latency would still be an issue. HMX knew this thus opting for game specific guitars.
    This is not exactly true. There is a difference between processing the audio signal from the guitar for real-time scoring purposes and dropping of the audio track (which RB does) and simply playing the audio through a receiver which creates a lag between when that signal is input and when it comes out of the speakers. HMX has talked about the scoring of the audio signal requiring too much time and not being sensitive enough for what they wanted to do with the game (e.g., to allow the stems to drop out in a reasonable time). Lag in audio systems is handled by calibrating the audio to actually play X ms before it is supposed to be heard. The squire tech, then, is only used to cut down the amount of time it takes to drop the audio stem, otherwise the two types of lag would compound (i.e., if you missed a strum, the audio track would not drop out for the amount of time it takes RB to process that miss + the amount of time it takes for the signal to get through your audio system). Even still, with RB's system, as long as you are calibrated, the audio, video, and your playing will always feel as if they are aligned (the note will cross the hit bar as you need to be triggering the note and as the note is playing on the audio).

    Rocksmith doesn't drop the audio so it doesn't have to "score" you as fast, but it still has to put a signal through your audio system. If that system introduces 30ms of lag, then the signal you hear from your speakers will always come through 30ms after you play it. You cannot change this unless your guitar can put out a signal before you play it. Therefore, no matter what you do, the sound of your guitar will not align with the sound of the music if you are strumming on beat. Rocksmith could conceivably calibrate the game so that the on screen notation tells you to play notes 30ms early, but then you would have to be strumming the guitar off beat to get the sound to come out at the right time.

    Read...
    tnevaker;4408616 said:
    ...the right things about lag...


    I really thought Rocksmith was handling this by having the original song play with all instruments intact and playing your own guitar without it coming through the speakers. There's no audio lag off of strings, so you would hear your strings and the original player. I have to imagine there is an option to have/not have your guitar play through the speakers while you are playing the game.

    As for just using it as an amp, I can see that some of the effects might be cool to use and lag would be a problem for them too, but if I want to play my guitar through an amp... I'll use an amp.
  • DMBilliesDMBillies Road Warrior
    edited June 2011
    RRhoads;4408719 said:
    What if the signal is analog, do you think there would be delay then? Like I said, I don't get any noticeable lag between my PC and sound system when I connect my guitar there. I would be getting this game for PC anyway.
    I am guessing your computer "sound system" does not have nearly the signal processing of most modern TV's and surround sound systems, which do all kinds of "magic" to the signal before it comes out of your speakers. The issue the guy in the review is talking about results from the amount of time it takes for an audio signal to go from the console/computer, through your sound system, and out the speakers, not the amount of time it takes for the instrument to send a signal to the console/computer.

    If audio takes 30 ms from the time it leaves the console to come out the speakers, any guitar you hook up to that console is going to play a sound AT LEAST 30 ms after you strum the notes (adding on any time it takes to get from the guitar to the console, which will typically be very small, and any processing that the console does). This will be inescapable for many people unless they are playing on a system with near 0 lag (which may be your computer, but anyone with a surround sound system is probably in trouble).

    Read any thread on calibration and you'll notice two things: 1) In games where timing an action appropriately with an audio and video signal is critically important, people notice rather small misalignments, and 2) TV's and sound systems vary widely in how much audio and video lag they introduce.
  • NOT_TravisNOT_Travis Rising Star
    edited June 2011
    tnevaker;4408616 said:
    the best thing about RB3 for me was that option to turn off drum fills.

    THIS! I've actually rerouted sound directly from my PS3 to the speaker input through a switch box just for RB2. Now, with RB3, I turned it off, but it's still nice to hear it when you hit it before and after the song starts or ends.
  • RRhoadsRRhoads Unsigned
    edited June 2011
    DMBillies;4408750 said:
    I am guessing your computer "sound system" does not have nearly the signal processing of most modern TV's and surround sound systems, which do all kinds of "magic" to the signal before it comes out of your speakers. The issue the guy in the review is talking about results from the amount of time it takes for an audio signal to go from the console/computer, through your sound system, and out the speakers, not the amount of time it takes for the instrument to send a signal to the console/computer.
    I got the Logitech Z-5500 on PC. Works fine for the PC. Better sound than most TV's. I wouldn't use it in my living room though.
    You are only half right on what the guy in the review is talking about. He's talking about the latency from the guitar to the speaker. Most of the delay here is either in the 360/PS3 or the cable. That's where most of the work is done.
    DMBillies;4408750 said:
    If audio takes 30 ms from the time it leaves the console to come out the speakers, any guitar you hook up to that console is going to play a sound AT LEAST 30 ms after you strum the notes (adding on any time it takes to get from the guitar to the console, which will typically be very small, and any processing that the console does). This will be inescapable for many people unless they are playing on a system with near 0 lag (which may be your computer, but anyone with a surround sound system is probably in trouble).
    Why are you only thinking about the latency between the console and the speakers?
    Why do you also think surround has anything to do with it? Processing? What about amps/pedals with different DIGITAL effects? How do you explain that there is no input lag there?
    DMBillies;4408750 said:
    Read any thread on calibration and you'll notice two things: 1) In games where timing an action appropriately with an audio and video signal is critically important, people notice rather small misalignments, and 2) TV's and sound systems vary widely in how much audio and video lag they introduce.
    No need to lecture me on VIDEO input lag. 30ms is pretty normal there. That's also what most calibration is about when it comes to Rock Band and Guitar Hero. That's why you have to delay the audio. You have to make sure the audio is at the same time as the video. CRT's don't have this issue, because the signal doesn't have to be digital. It's analog all the way there.

    A lot of people use a Line 6 POD, Guitar Rig, Garageband etc which they don't complain about lag. And 10 times out of 10 when they do complain about, it's a problem with their software/hardware/drivers on their PC/MAC. It works fine.

    That said, I'm pretty sure this game will be playable on my PC, but I'm not so sure about how it will work out on consoles.

    The only doubt I have about the PC version is the cable it forces us to use. That's where the big delay is going to be, you know, where it makes the analog signal digital.
  • dog037dog037 This Many Days Since Last Ban:
    edited June 2011
    New Songs!


    • Best Coast – When I'm With You
    • Blur – Song 2
    • The Black Keys – Next Girl
    • The Boxer Rebellion – Step Out Of The Car
    • Cream – Sunshine Of Your Love
    • The Cribs – We Share The Same Skies
    • The Cure – Boys Don't Cry
    • Jenny O – Well OK Honey
    • Lynyrd Skynyrd – Sweet Home Alabama
    • Nirvana – Breed
    • Pixies – Where Is My Mind?
    • Radiohead – High and Dry
    • Red Fang – Number Thirteen
    • The Rolling Stones – The Spider and the Fly
    • Silversun Pickups – Panic Switch
    • Soundgarden - Outshined
    • Spoon – Me and The Bean
    • Stone Temple Pilots – Vasoline
    • Taddy Porter – Mean *****
    • Titus Andronicus – A More Perfect Union
    • White Denim – Burnished
    • The White Stripes – Icky Thump
    • Yellow Moon Band - Chimney


    Soundgarden exclusive? Other than Where is My Mind? not much to excite me.

    Edit: Source
  • raynebcraynebc Road Warrior
    edited June 2011
    Only recognizing a few by name, I listened to all of these on Youtube. I have to admit, I didn't recognize almost any of them, and I'm not impressed by the track list. I've transitioned from "maybe" getting this game to "waiting for good DLC".
  • bjyaritzbjyaritz Road Warrior
    edited June 2011
    dog037;4409021 said:
    New Songs!


    • Best Coast – When I'm With You
    • Blur – Song 2
    • The Black Keys – Next Girl
    • The Boxer Rebellion – Step Out Of The Car
    • Cream – Sunshine Of Your Love
    • The Cribs – We Share The Same Skies
    • The Cure – Boys Don't Cry
    • Jenny O – Well OK Honey
    • Lynyrd Skynyrd – Sweet Home Alabama
    • Nirvana – Breed
    • Pixies – Where Is My Mind?
    • Radiohead – High and Dry
    • Red Fang – Number Thirteen
    • The Rolling Stones – The Spider and the Fly
    • Silversun Pickups – Panic Switch
    • Soundgarden - Outshined
    • Spoon – Me and The Bean
    • Stone Temple Pilots – Vasoline
    • Taddy Porter – Mean *****
    • Titus Andronicus – A More Perfect Union
    • White Denim – Burnished
    • The White Stripes – Icky Thump
    • Yellow Moon Band - Chimney


    Soundgarden exclusive? Other than Where is My Mind? not much to excite me.

    Wow, I thought they would come out swingin'. Looks like the best songs were the ones they played on the demo (The Animals). Not impressed at all by the selection. And why, if they don't need stems, did they not just partner up with Apple and make the game run through i tunes. There is obviously something fishy about this project. I think it is a lot more work to chart the music then we were led to believe.
  • GNFfhqwhgadsGNFfhqwhgads 99% Washed Up
    edited June 2011
    You can't see it, but my computer is covered in vomit over Best Coast. Checked them out watching the Coachella stream and...no...
  • LiveHomeVideoLiveHomeVideo Trying too hard
    edited June 2011
    dog037;4409021 said:
    New Songs!


    • Best Coast – When I'm With You
    • Blur – Song 2
    • The Black Keys – Next Girl
    • The Boxer Rebellion – Step Out Of The Car
    • Cream – Sunshine Of Your Love
    • The Cribs – We Share The Same Skies
    • The Cure – Boys Don't Cry
    • Jenny O – Well OK Honey
    • Lynyrd Skynyrd – Sweet Home Alabama
    • Nirvana – Breed
    • Pixies – Where Is My Mind?
    • Radiohead – High and Dry
    • Red Fang – Number Thirteen
    • The Rolling Stones – The Spider and the Fly
    • Silversun Pickups – Panic Switch
    • Soundgarden - Outshined
    • Spoon – Me and The Bean
    • Stone Temple Pilots – Vasoline
    • Taddy Porter – Mean *****
    • Titus Andronicus – A More Perfect Union
    • White Denim – Burnished
    • The White Stripes – Icky Thump
    • Yellow Moon Band - Chimney


    Soundgarden exclusive? Other than Where is My Mind? not much to excite me.

    Edit: Source

    Only thing I'm excited about that isn't in Rock Band is Best Coast, and that isn't worth an entire game IMO. Good song, but not that epic.
  • General Lein979General Lein979 Headliner
    edited June 2011
    dog037;4409021 said:
    New Songs!



    Soundgarden exclusive? Other than Where is My Mind? not much to excite me.

    Edit: Source
    If I remember correctly they're not using isolated masters (so when you miss a note the guitar doesn't cut out and the game isn't on off switches like gh and rb) so the licensing for songs is mostly likely different. I'm guessing music game exclusives pertain to master stems licensing for gaming only, this would explain something like the iphone/ipod touch game tap tap Metallica.

    Not using isolated masters opens up a lot of doors when it comes to licensing and what can't be used due to non existing or non working masters.

    My personal opinion on the game is that there is barely any game aspect to it and is more of a new way to teach guitar. I personally wouldn't have marketed it as a game, the gaming community will rip it to shreds due to its lack of real game (imo) bringing down sales, but instead to the guitar stores as an alternative and fun option to to learn to play guitar instead of the books. Granted its a slower burn sales wise, but a better chance for success and it has longevity due to its lack of focus on aesthetics (from what I've seen).
  • DMBilliesDMBillies Road Warrior
    edited June 2011
    RRhoads;4408881 said:
    Why are you only thinking about the latency between the console and the speakers?
    Why do you also think surround has anything to do with it? Processing? What about amps/pedals with different DIGITAL effects? How do you explain that there is no input lag there?
    I am thinking about latency there because the original comment in the review was that Rocksmith needs to fix the latency. Maybe a lot of that latency is going to be the link from guitar through the console. That part of the equation, Rocksmith does have some control over in the design of the adapter and what they choose to do with the signal when it is in your console.

    They do NOT have control over the signal after it leaves the console and there is latency in many sound systems that they will have no control over. What do I mean by processing? Things like changing the settings that a lot of surround systems have (e.g., arena, concert hall, etc.). I know if I change my dolby settings on my system I get different audio calibrations in RB.

    In any case, lag at any point is a problem, I was just saying that lag in the system that occurs after the console/PC, is something that Rocksmith has no control over and there is no way to calibrate for it.
  • Bront20Bront20 The Writing's on the Wall
    edited June 2011
    dog037;4409021 said:
    New Songs!


    • Best Coast – When I'm With You
    • Blur – Song 2
    • The Black Keys – Next Girl
    • The Boxer Rebellion – Step Out Of The Car
    • Cream – Sunshine Of Your Love
    • The Cribs – We Share The Same Skies
    • The Cure – Boys Don't Cry
    • Jenny O – Well OK Honey
    • Lynyrd Skynyrd – Sweet Home Alabama
    • Nirvana – Breed
    • Pixies – Where Is My Mind?
    • Radiohead – High and Dry
    • Red Fang – Number Thirteen
    • The Rolling Stones – The Spider and the Fly
    • Silversun Pickups – Panic Switch
    • Soundgarden - Outshined
    • Spoon – Me and The Bean
    • Stone Temple Pilots – Vasoline
    • Taddy Porter – Mean *****
    • Titus Andronicus – A More Perfect Union
    • White Denim – Burnished
    • The White Stripes – Icky Thump
    • Yellow Moon Band - Chimney


    Soundgarden exclusive? Other than Where is My Mind? not much to excite me.

    Edit: Source
    It's possible exclusivity is for 5 button games, and this doesn't qualify.

    Or soundgarden isn't exclusive, and just wanted too much.
  • RRhoadsRRhoads Unsigned
    edited June 2011
    DMBillies;4409492 said:


    In any case, lag at any point is a problem, I was just saying that lag in the system that occurs after the console/PC, is something that Rocksmith has no control over and there is no way to calibrate for it.

    I agree with the rest of the post, and I do agree with what you are saying here, but I really don't think the latency between the console and the speakers will be much of a problem. Like I said, speaking from own experience and looking at how similiar software has works and has worked. On advanced surround systems, there's always some processes you can turn off to minimize the lag.
  • Doom878Doom878 Road Warrior
    edited June 2011
    Well thanks to Radiohead and Black Keys my wife will likely approve this purchase....if I want it. Looking forward to Cream and Outshined Outshined Outshined.
  • Ruz-ElRuz-El Rising Star
    edited June 2011
    I have a guitar, but I'm not interested in this game at all. Unless it hits the $20 price or something. That said, they have a Rolling Stones song that I don't think has appeared anywhere else. We need some of these Stones songs in Rock Band! It ain't right I tell ya!

    I'm going to email Keith Richards and get on this...
  • abynormalabynormal Rising Star
    edited June 2011
    And once again my hopes of seeing Clapton on my beloved music game are diminished.
  • toymachineSHtoymachineSH Headliner
    edited June 2011
    Ruz-El;4410153 said:
    I have a guitar, but I'm not interested in this game at all. Unless it hits the $20 price or something. That said, they have a Rolling Stones song that I don't think has appeared anywhere else. We need some of these Stones songs in Rock Band! It ain't right I tell ya!

    I'm going to email Keith Richards and get on this...
    I doubt this game will be $20 anytime soon because it requires a cable to play it.
  • radrob202radrob202 Unsigned
    edited June 2011
    This Rocksmith game is $80 and it only has like 5 songs on it.
  • toymachineSHtoymachineSH Headliner
    edited June 2011
    5 songs you care about?

    There's over 50 songs on the disc
  • LiveHomeVideoLiveHomeVideo Trying too hard
    edited June 2011
    I was not happy with people's reaction over Youtube about this. I had to keep telling them that ROCK BAND HAS DONE THIS!
  • toymachineSHtoymachineSH Headliner
    edited June 2011
    like omg Fretlight already did what Rock Band did

    http://www.jcsautomation.com/axmaster.asp
  • Doom878Doom878 Road Warrior
    edited June 2011
    The power of marketing. Now Dave Navarro endorses it.
  • raynebcraynebc Road Warrior
    edited June 2011
    Fretlight doesn't detect what you're playing or where your fingers are, but it looks like a neat idea.
  • nicko68nicko68 Road Warrior
    edited June 2011
    abynormal;4410377 said:
    And once again my hopes of seeing Clapton on my beloved music game are diminished.

    I don't get it. I think he was one of the ones who didn't like the GH/RB games with the fake plastic guitars, but I figured with RB3 being able to use the pro controllers, that we'd get his stuff in game.
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