Rocksmith & Rocksmith 2014 discussion thread

Comments

  • Doom878Doom878 Road Warrior
    edited June 2011
    Didn't somebody say that the lower the note the more lag? Won't bass really be affected by lag?
  • tnevakertnevaker Road Warrior
    edited June 2011
    Doom878;4423605 said:
    Didn't somebody say that the lower the note the more lag? Won't bass really be affected by lag?

    it's an interesting question. first, it depends which type of lag/latency you're talking about: software latency (the ability of the software to recognize what note is being played) vs. audio lag (the difference in time between when you play a note and when you hear it back).

    it takes at least a full cycle of the sound waveform for any software to be able to recognize the frequency of a tone. the fundamental of a low E on the bass is about 40 Hz, or 40 cycles per second, so it takes 25ms for the waveform to go through one whole cycle. therefore, any software will take at least 25ms before it can recognize the lowest bass note playable (i'll assume they're only supporting 4-string basses, so no low B notes... might have to go slightly lower if they're including basses tuned down to D). that's a pretty significant lag, however, it seems like rocksmith's scoring system doesn't need to analyze waveforms in real-time to generate accuracy scores, so 25ms of lag may not be an issue as far as gameplay.

    audio-wise, it depends on how rocksmith is generating the guitar/bass sounds. presumably they are just doing an A/D conversion, doing some digital processing, and spitting the audio back out. it's no different than how any other digital audio system does sound processing. there are plenty of bass effects pedals that do A/D conversion, process the audio digitally, and D/A convert back out the other end to an amp, without any noticable lag. so i wouldn't expect the audio processing in rocksmith would have a problem with that. also, audio lag with bass is not as much of a problem. most people can't hear down that low in frequency to the fundamentals of the lowest bass notes, and a lot of audio systems can't reproduce frequencies that low without a subwoofer. when you hear a bass, you mostly hear the higher harmonics and "feel" the lower frequencies, and your brain kind of puts it together in a way that you interpret as bass. also, just as it takes 25ms for software to recognize a low E, it takes your brain at least that long to recognize the note as well. the way we hear and experience bass frequencies, lag is not as noticable as it is for higher frequencies. that's also why we have a harder time determining the direction of bass frequencies as opposed to higher frequencies (and thus why you can place your subwoofer in almost any location in a room and won't notice the difference). because of that, the audio lag might actually be LESS noticable for bass than it is for guitar.
  • RRhoadsRRhoads Unsigned
    edited June 2011
    Catch-22;4423361 said:
    Can you explain that please?
    What I meant is that it is not the real part of the guitar you are using. You are using the sensors in the neck, and you can't hear what you are really playing. So in a sense, Ubisoft are right to say that it is the first game that is played with a real guitar, if you look away from freeware games for the PC.
  • PowderedToast76PowderedToast76 Unsigned
    edited June 2011
    raynebc;4423186 said:
    I've seen them constantly claim to work with "any real guitar", and even that is a lie because they already said it won't work as intended except for 6 string electric guitar.
    There's no reason why you couldn't play this with a 7 string guitar. You'd just be using only 6 strings.
  • alexlifesonalexlifeson Opening Act
    edited June 2011
    Cant figure out the confusing notation at all.
    What are they thinking
    Guess you have to go thru the tutorials to understand
    toymachineSH;4419735 said:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3RrNeZWkxE yeah they had this going on
  • RRhoadsRRhoads Unsigned
    edited June 2011
    alexlifeson;4427997 said:
    Cant figure out the confusing notation at all.
    What are they thinking
    Guess you have to go thru the tutorials to understand

    It was a bit confusing the first time I saw a video of it. Then I realized that the notiations have the same colors as each individual string, so it should be OK. It's also 3D so that should help too. I think people will get used to this rather quickly.
  • tnevakertnevaker Road Warrior
    edited June 2011
    my biggest issue with the notation is that it will look like an incomprehensible mess when you've got the full song playing, and you've got tons and tons of little flying blocks coming at you. the gameplay they've shown so far has only been on the easiest level. i don't know how many times i've seen a video with the riff from "satisfaction" because it's a simple riff that doesn't look too messy in this notation. but try to imagine something like the crazy train solo with those little spinning blocks for each note. same with chords... they show you the easy versions, where there's only one chord at the beginning of each measure. what is it going to look like when you've got a song strumming 16th note chords, and adding or removing notes on certain chords in the middle of a measure.
  • RRhoadsRRhoads Unsigned
    edited June 2011
    tnevaker;4428065 said:
    my biggest issue with the notation is that it will look like an incomprehensible mess when you've got the full song playing, and you've got tons and tons of little flying blocks coming at you. the gameplay they've shown so far has only been on the easiest level. i don't know how many times i've seen a video with the riff from "satisfaction" because it's a simple riff that doesn't look too messy in this notation. but try to imagine something like the crazy train solo with those little spinning blocks for each note. same with chords... they show you the easy versions, where there's only one chord at the beginning of each measure. what is it going to look like when you've got a song strumming 16th note chords, and adding or removing notes on certain chords in the middle of a measure.
    That's a good point.
  • kitlerckitlerc Road Warrior
    edited June 2011
    So I'm officially getting this game. Why? Cause if I buy this game as well as the RB3 Squier Strat, I get $40 off. Not a bad deal.

    Note: You can get $40 with the purchase of Rocksmith and almost any guitar, it isn't limited to that specific one.
  • uprkdarkwolfuprkdarkwolf Rising Star
    edited June 2011
    RRhoads;4423141 said:
    Due to demand, they're going to release a Bass-mode as downloadable content a little while after launch.
    If this is true, then they've been listening to one of the biggest complaints about the lack of a certain pro-instrument.
  • Bront20Bront20 The Writing's on the Wall
    edited June 2011
    uprkdarkwolf;4431278 said:
    If this is true, then they've been listening to one of the biggest complaints about the lack of a certain pro-instrument.
    For RB, it doesn't make as much sence, since the pro guitar is a niche item (mustang and squier), let alone a piece of hardware that will ONLY work for bass, unlike the guitar that works for both.

    For Rocksmith, it's easier, since they only have to do the charts since it can use any bass.
  • uprkdarkwolfuprkdarkwolf Rising Star
    edited June 2011
    Bront20;4431319 said:
    For RB, it doesn't make as much sence, since the pro guitar is a niche item (mustang and squier), let alone a piece of hardware that will ONLY work for bass, unlike the guitar that works for both.

    For Rocksmith, it's easier, since they only have to do the charts since it can use any bass.

    Remember that you are replying to a guy who bought a Mustang only for the auto-calibration capability. I won't play bass charts on it, and I haven't. I don't care to. It's two different instruments.

    I did buy a real bass a couple weeks ago and I have been practicing on it. I was originally holding out for an actual pro-bass peripheral, but upon hearing about the Squire being discontinued, I decided to go ahead and get a real four string. I've been practicing on it and I haven't touched Rock Band since.

    I was ready to dismiss Rocksmith as not worth my time, but now I'm a little curious about how they're going to support bass.
  • alexlifesonalexlifeson Opening Act
    edited June 2011
    I have a question. I wonder if the YouRockGuitar (YRG) will work with RockSmith
  • raynebcraynebc Road Warrior
    edited June 2011
    That's a good question. If so, it would probably mean other synthesizers would work also, so people could play it with a keyboard for the laughs.
  • Pwnz0r3dPwnz0r3d Road Warrior
    edited June 2011
    [QUOTE=uprkdarkwolf;4431336] but upon hearing about the Squire being discontinued, [QUOTE]

    I dont believe it is, i went back to that thread to see if there was any new info, and this is the first HMX has heard about it. They're saying its something to do with Fender's manufacturing times or something or other; bottom line is, apparently they're still available at best buys, and there is no desire to discontinue the product. at least, thats what an HMX staff member (forgot who) explained.
  • RRhoadsRRhoads Unsigned
    edited June 2011
    alexlifeson;4431808 said:
    I have a question. I wonder if the YouRockGuitar (YRG) will work with RockSmith
    It should work, since it has a regular Jack output.
  • raynebcraynebc Road Warrior
    edited June 2011
    It's not guaranteed to work. Rocksmith is entirely designed to analyze the ringing of guitar strings, not synthesized output.
  • RRhoadsRRhoads Unsigned
    edited June 2011
    raynebc;4432138 said:
    It's not guaranteed to work. Rocksmith is entirely designed to analyze the ringing of guitar strings, not synthesized output.

    Yeah, but that guitar does have a regular jack output if you use a regular amp.
  • raynebcraynebc Road Warrior
    edited June 2011
    That alone doesn't really mean much. My synthesizer has a mini stereo output, and I've used a mini stereo to quarter inch adapter to plug it into one of my amps before.
  • RRhoadsRRhoads Unsigned
    edited June 2011
    raynebc;4432405 said:
    That alone doesn't really mean much. My synthesizer has a mini stereo output, and I've used a mini stereo to quarter inch adapter to plug it into one of my amps before.
    Well, I googled the guitar again, and instead of just reading the specs, I looked at the pictures too..

    I'm not so sure now. It does say it has a "Standard ¼-inch output for guitar amp", so if the notes transmitted to the guitar amp is correct, I suppose the game will register them as well. Not sure about how great this guitar sounds though.
  • uprkdarkwolfuprkdarkwolf Rising Star
    edited June 2011
    Pwnz0r3d;4431880 said:
    [QUOTE=uprkdarkwolf;4431336] but upon hearing about the Squire being discontinued,

    I dont believe it is, i went back to that thread to see if there was any new info, and this is the first HMX has heard about it. They're saying its something to do with Fender's manufacturing times or something or other; bottom line is, apparently they're still available at best buys, and there is no desire to discontinue the product. at least, thats what an HMX staff member (forgot who) explained.[/QUOTE]

    In any event, no one seemed to be interested in releasing a pro-bass peripheral, even though there is a HUGE demand for one (I've taken a look at the Facebook Rocksmith page, there are people saying if there is no bass support, they will not buy it.)

    I really don't care how anyone tries to spin it; when there are FENDER reps themselves saying that the Squire has been discontinued, I would rather take it as word straight from the horse's mouth, as opposed to listening to a software company who has been caught with pants down in the past by making statements that turned out to not be true. Lack of Squire Strat controller production would eventually mean that we would never see a Squire P-Bass controller. It really is bad business to ignore a significant market.

    MadCatz wouldn't even give a straight answer about a Pro-Bass Peripheral. If they do it, it needs to be a full sized bass. And it needs to have different "string" thicknesses.

    If Rocksmith releases with bass support out of the box, I would buy it. If Rocksmith doesn't, then I won't even touch it. I'm not the only person fed up with bass getting ignored for other instruments.

    (Playing bass parts on a guitar controller introduces bad habits that would have to be overcome later, and is NOT in our best interest. I tried; I found myself reaching for frets that weren't even there.)

    Now, I didn't mean for it to turn into a rant, but I am that consumer who now demands that one of these companies stop ignoring bass players. Period. /story
  • tnevakertnevaker Road Warrior
    edited June 2011
    raynebc;4432138 said:
    It's not guaranteed to work. Rocksmith is entirely designed to analyze the ringing of guitar strings, not synthesized output.

    well, NO guitar is guaranteed to work. Rocksmith will only say that MOST guitars work with it. i doubt they'd guarantee any particular individual guitar would work. all RS is doing is analyzing SOUND... whether that sound is produced by guitar strings or a synth shouldn't really matter. if anything, i would think it would have an easier time analyzing synth sounds, since there aren't all the extraneous sounds like pick noise, string noise from the fingers sliding across the strings, etc that have to be accounted for on a regular guitar. now, crazy synth sounds like a tuba or a vuvuzela might give the software trouble, but i would think as long as the synth sound is a reasonable approximation of a guitar tone, rocksmith should have no problem with it.
  • HMXmattitudeHMXmattitude Harmonix Developer
    edited June 2011
    I haven't played RB3's Squier, but I really enjoy the Mustang and feel like that's just about the perfect way to play real guitar parts in a game. It's a game, and games need input from buttons to give proper feedback. I fee like there'd just be too many variables with a real guitar. What if the strings vibrate too much? What if it's slightly out of tune?
  • raynebcraynebc Road Warrior
    edited June 2011
    tnevaker;4432937 said:
    well, NO guitar is guaranteed to work. Rocksmith will only say that MOST guitars work with it. i doubt they'd guarantee any particular individual guitar would work. all RS is doing is analyzing SOUND... whether that sound is produced by guitar strings or a synth shouldn't really matter. if anything, i would think it would have an easier time analyzing synth sounds, since there aren't all the extraneous sounds like pick noise, string noise from the fingers sliding across the strings, etc that have to be accounted for on a regular guitar. now, crazy synth sounds like a tuba or a vuvuzela might give the software trouble, but i would think as long as the synth sound is a reasonable approximation of a guitar tone, rocksmith should have no problem with it.
    It does matter. Their software based method has to analyze the entire sound message, beginning from the attack of where you pick the strings. Synthesized tones are going to be quite different from tones that are produced by a guitar pickup. In any case "synthesizers might work" is a more correct answer than "they should work" at this point. I've read answers from the RockSmith Twitter feed where they said specific models of guitar will work, so they definitely been testing against real guitars, but I don't see why they'd have tested synthesizers.
  • tnevakertnevaker Road Warrior
    edited June 2011
    if its a reasonable approximation of a guitar sound, then it will also have an attack. and besides, the attack doesn't carry the tone of the note being played, which is what the game has to analyze to determine what note is being played. it only needs to account for the attack so it can discard that audio information to avoid confusing the software into detecting the wrong note.

    i don't know specifically how the YRG generates its sounds, but most synths these days are based on samples, so if it or another synth is using guitar samples, it will produce waveforms that aren't vastly different than a guitar. you might have problems if you try using a heavy distortion tone or some processing/effects, since the game is expecting a clean output direct from the guitar, but as long as you choose a clean guitar tone from the YRG or a synth, it should fit right into the parameters of what the RS software is expecting. the only issue i can see is if the YRG or synth output is a line-level output, since guitar pickups output a lower level signal. if they output a line-level signal, it may overload the software, but then there are boxes that can convert line-level signals to instrument level signals, so it could still be made to work. and the YRG might already be putting out sound at instrument levels, since it's designed to plug into a guitar amp.
  • Funk-n-steinFunk-n-stein Rising Star
    edited June 2011
    Just went through the track listing for Rocksmith and listened to the tracks I was unfamiliar with on youtube. Although I'm very interested in Rocksmith and will probably buy it if there are no serious latencey issues, I have to say I'm a bit disappointed in the track listing so far. Just doesn't seem to be that much variety. I realize that it's probably only a partial listing, but too many indie style songs where the guitar isn't the focus and it's just straight beat strumming of a handful of chords.
  • tnevakertnevaker Road Warrior
    edited June 2011
    i think the track listing reflects the fact that this game is geared more toward teaching new guitarists than satisfying existing guitarists. most of the songs listed are fairly basic, with simple melody lines or basic chords being repeated. there's not much challenge in that song listing for existing guitarists. certainly nothing along the lines of crazy train or a7x. and considering the wonky notation system they're using, i don't know if those songs would even translate into even a vaguely readable form on this game.

    maybe they are saving the more difficult songs for dlc, but you'd think there'd be at least a few challenging songs on disk. it's ironic that this is the game that can be used with ANY guitar, thus should be more appealing to experienced guitarists who would want to use their own guitars instead of buying a new one, and yet the song list has almost nothing an experienced guitarist would be very interested in playing.
  • raynebcraynebc Road Warrior
    edited June 2011
    It would make sense for them to put the hard songs as DLC so they don't put off beginners from the game. This could put off experienced guitarists, but Ubisoft must have taken this into account.
  • toymachineSHtoymachineSH Headliner
    edited June 2011
    OXM’s latest issue contains an article on Ubisoft’s Rocksmith which dropped a few new artists on the table. Artists such as: Neil Young, Lenny Kravitz, Stone Temple Pilots, Tom Petty, Incubus, Franz Ferdinand, Kings of Leon, and Rage Against The Machine.

    Metal fans should also take note that OXM is reporting that “the soundtrack.. is almost purely alternative and classic rock.”
    http://theherofeed.com/3002/oxm-reveals-new-artists-for-rocksmith/
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