Old RBN1.0 songs with broken pro-drums should be blacklisted from pro-drums.

aaaaa0aaaaa0 Unsigned
edited April 2011 in The Rock Band Network
Is HMX going to at least make some sort of black list in the RB3 system so that the older RBN 1.0 songs I have with broken/nonexistant Pro Drums don't falsely show up as supporting Pro Drums in the menus?

It's very annoying to play songs at a party, and only realize you're in the wrong drum mode after the song has started.

Comments

  • raynebcraynebc Road Warrior
    edited March 2011
    They could fix it, but they'd have to peer review the pre-RBN2 songs that don't have tom markers. Any chart that had tom markers can be assumed to have pro drums.
  • LuigiHannLuigiHann Stormtrooper
    edited March 2011
    I still say that taking all of the songs with no tom markers at all, and labeling those songs as having no Pro Drums part, would have a much more acceptable degree of error than the situation we have right now.
  • raynebcraynebc Road Warrior
    edited March 2011
    Agreed. I made this argument before, but since everybody would have had to play those charts on all pads before RB3, they'd be familiar with doing it again now. If the pro drum phrasings were all notes are toms by default, this would never have become a problem. Granted, that would require quite a bit more notes in the chart.
  • BlasteroidsBlasteroids Road Warrior
    edited March 2011
    They could create a white-list for this now that RBN1.0 is closed, but it would need a patch and as we all know (and have been told numerous times) that patches are not cheap.

    But I am getting the feeling we are stuck with the broken (yes, it is broken) system. I have been marking my DLC with a 1 lighter if it does not have pro-drums and thankfully none have come up in an online session.
  • DragoonXDDragoonXD Road Warrior
    edited March 2011
    I would have no problem with this at all, if we could switch between pro and non-pro drums in the middle of setlists. But I still play regular drums more than pro drums, and I think it's silly to refuse to play a song on regular drums (because there is no choice).
  • NoThru22NoThru22 Road Warrior
    edited March 2011
    DragoonXD;4343543 said:
    I would have no problem with this at all, if we could switch between pro and non-pro drums in the middle of setlists. But I still play regular drums more than pro drums, and I think it's silly to refuse to play a song on regular drums (because there is no choice).

    I am pretty sure you can drop out, hit start, change to drums, and restart the song in the middle of a setlist and the do the same when the next song has pro drums. Am I wrong about that?
  • DragoonXDDragoonXD Road Warrior
    edited March 2011
    I'll try that when I get home today. Unfortunately, that isn't helpful when playing online (as I'd get kicked out of the session), but it would solve a lot of my problems.
  • GNFfhqwhgadsGNFfhqwhgads 99% Washed Up
    edited March 2011
    DragoonXD;4346735 said:
    I'll try that when I get home today. Unfortunately, that isn't helpful when playing online (as I'd get kicked out of the session), but it would solve a lot of my problems.
    Really?
    GNFfhqwhgads;4343199 said:
    If you're in the wrong mode, pause it, turn all the cymbals off.
  • DragoonXDDragoonXD Road Warrior
    edited March 2011
    Sorry, I tend to skip past your sarcastic responses, because they usually aren't helpful.
  • SkodeSkode Headliner
    edited March 2011
    DragoonXD;4346973 said:
    Sorry, I tend to skip past your sarcastic responses, because they usually aren't helpful.

    Ive nothing to add to this but i have to admit this cracked me up haha
  • PeridotWeaponPeridotWeapon Opening Act
    edited March 2011
    NoThru22;4346312 said:
    I am pretty sure you can drop out, hit start, change to drums, and restart the song in the middle of a setlist and the do the same when the next song has pro drums. Am I wrong about that?
    Nodnod. You can switch from Drums to Pro Drums and back again, and even activate or remove specific cymbals between the songs.

    You can even "Zero Cymbal Pro Drum" if you want - start a song in Pro Drums with cymbals enabled, then pause the song, disable ALL the cymbals and restart. You can play the standard Drum chart and have it count for Pro Drum goals and attire unlocks, but you probably won't be able to Gold Star ANYTHING due to the higher cutoffs. (Well, other than Polly. Heh.)


    But I wouldn't expect any sort of a patch or 'disable option' for this, much like we'll never get a patch to restore all the RBN 1.0 songs to the "Impossible" tier rating they once had. (That's where *I* use all my 1-lighter indicators, so I know all the songs that used to be final tier in RB2.)

    Although an all-purpose "customize" patch would be nice. Give you the ability to rewrite the Tiers for songs for how they'll display on your copy of the game (there are some Tier 2 songs on RBN that are harder than some Tier 5s!), and mark Pro Drums as "no chart" on a song-by-song basis if you don't feel they're playable.

    Then we could fix things without Harmonix needing to step in and intervene on each individual song.
  • NoThru22NoThru22 Road Warrior
    edited March 2011
    Please note that if you switch the cymbals off, you won't be able to gold star (most) songs any more. You only get 25 points per hit when you hit the wrong surface instead of 30 and the gold star score in pro drums is based off of 30 points per hit. I got 100% on a Jonathan Coulton song but no gold stars because of that. Drop out, change, restart is the best option (you don't need to restart, but it won't score you if you don't.)
  • PeridotWeaponPeridotWeapon Opening Act
    edited March 2011
    NoThru22;4348738 said:
    Please note that if you switch the cymbals off, you won't be able to gold star (most) songs any more. You only get 25 points per hit when you hit the wrong surface instead of 30 and the gold star score in pro drums is based off of 30 points per hit. I got 100% on a Jonathan Coulton song but no gold stars because of that. Drop out, change, restart is the best option (you don't need to restart, but it won't score you if you don't.)
    Nodnod. I mentioned that above (although I didn't get into the scoring specifics).

    ZCPD (Zero-Cymbal Pro Drum) is really only useful for people that want to be able to gain the fan and clothing unlocks for Pro Drums without owning any cymbals. It's definitely NOT a good plan if you like Gold Stars or high leaderboard positions - full combos often won't even be good enough to get you on the top half of the leaderboard! :)

    And I suppose if you only play Pro Drums and wanted to increase your Total Career (including DLC) score, you could use ZCPD to play the songs with poorly charted Pro Drums and still have it count as a score in that category. But you'd be thousands of points behind the players that used the cymbals, regardless of chart accuracy.

    In the end, I suppose that's why I don't play much Pro Drums - I only have two of the three cymbals. And while I'm not a phenomenal drummer, I AM the "master of mediocrity," so when the game tells me I'm in the Top 40% of a Tier 1 song solely because I don't have a blue cymbal, it's kinda depressing. :)
  • aaaaa0aaaaa0 Unsigned
    edited March 2011
    Quazifuji;4343333 said:
    Unfortunately, they didn't program in any way for the game to distinguish between songs with no tom markers because that's how the song is (such as Creatures ov Deception) and songs with no tom markers because the authors didn't put them in, so the game just assumes all songs with no tom markers are the former. It bugs me too, but I'm pretty sure there's no way they can fix this now.

    Yeah I realize that the game doesn't know today which songs do and don't have Pro Drums.

    But since the RBN1 pipeline is now dead, they could just put in a blacklist in the next patch.

    It shouldn't be that hard to catalog the known RBN1 songs with broken Pro Drums, put them in a list, and include that list with the next game patch along with some code in the menus that just turns off the Pro Drum option for those songs.

    All I want is for the menus to show the right thing. I'm ok with the RBN1 songs that have wrong Pro Drums to just not support Pro Drums at all, rather than to incorrectly show that they do, which forces me to mess around in the menus, stoping the whole party, after beginning the song.
  • OscarvariumOscarvarium Rising Star
    edited March 2011
    aaaaa0;4350126 said:
    It shouldn't be that hard to catalog the known RBN1 songs with broken Pro Drums
    You'd be surprised. There are over 1000 RBN1.0 songs released and not all of the authors will still be active to confirm the status of the pro drum charting on their songs. It would be a huge amount of work to check every single chart to a decent standard.
  • aaaaa0aaaaa0 Unsigned
    edited March 2011
    Oscarvarium;4350145 said:
    You'd be surprised. There are over 1000 RBN1.0 songs released and not all of the authors will still be active to confirm the status of the pro drum charting on their songs. It would be a huge amount of work to check every single chart to a decent standard.

    If HMX can get ~50 guys to check the songs, and each song takes ~5 minutes to check, then it would take roughly 1.67 hours to do all 1000 RBN 1.0 songs.

    Suppose they're 20 times slower at checking the songs. So it takes them a day to do all 1000 songs.

    Can they take one day out of the dev schedule to fix this problem? Not to mention we already have a good list of which RBN1 songs DO support pro drums already posted in this forum, which should remove a good chuck of songs to be tested as well.
  • LuigiHannLuigiHann Stormtrooper
    edited March 2011
    aaaaa0;4350153 said:
    If HMX can get ~50 guys to check the songs, and each song takes ~5 minutes to check, then it would take roughly 1.67 hours to do all 1000 RBN 1.0 songs.

    I don't think Harmonix has 50 dudes just hanging around.

    But still they could have one coder run all the midi files through a script that checks if there's any data in the 3 pro drum note lanes. That would get most of the work out of the way in a shorter timespan than actually playing through them all, I'd imagine.
  • OscarvariumOscarvarium Rising Star
    edited March 2011
    aaaaa0;4350153 said:
    If HMX can get ~50 guys to check the songs, and each song takes ~5 minutes to check, then it would take roughly 1.67 hours to do all 1000 RBN 1.0 songs.

    Suppose they're 20 times slower at checking the songs. So it takes them a day to do all 1000 songs.

    Can they take one day out of the dev schedule to fix this problem? Not to mention we already have a good list of which RBN1 songs DO support pro drums already posted in this forum, which should remove a good chuck of songs to be tested as well.
    50 guys on this one problem? I suspect you seriously over-estimate the resources at Harmonix' disposal. :P
  • raynebcraynebc Road Warrior
    edited March 2011
    LuigiHann;4350167 said:
    But still they could have one coder run all the midi files through a script that checks if there's any data in the 3 pro drum note lanes. That would get most of the work out of the way in a shorter timespan than actually playing through them all, I'd imagine.

    Exactly. If a chart has tom drum phrases, it's a safe assumption that the chart authors knew how to chart pro drums, and it can be skipped, since it can't be fixed without replacing the MIDI anyways. The only charts that would have to be double checked are the ones that have no tom phrases.
  • OscarvariumOscarvarium Rising Star
    edited March 2011
    raynebc;4350225 said:
    Exactly. If a chart has tom drum phrases, it's a safe assumption that the chart authors knew how to chart pro drums, and it can be skipped, since it can't be fixed without replacing the MIDI anyways. The only charts that would have to be double checked are the ones that have no tom phrases.

    Actually, due to the fact that the authors had no way of testing Pro Drums until RB3 audition mode was patched in recently a few of the songs that are charted for Pro Drums have errors. Either with missing tom markers or in one case a misspelled text event meaning that the song stays in disco flip after the actual disco beat ends, making the rest of the song completely broken.
  • raynebcraynebc Road Warrior
    edited March 2011
    My point is they can't "fix" a chart with incorrect pro drum phrasing without replacing the MIDI, but they can fix it so that a chart that has no tom drums gets offered as just pads and bass pedal (no cymbals). At least this way, the charts would be as playable as they were in play-testing.
  • BlasteroidsBlasteroids Road Warrior
    edited March 2011
    There is also another problem nobody has mentioned. It is not only about making them show up correctly in the track listing but what happens during play? The game engine may not be designed to change down to non-pro and then change back to pro if a non-pro track is in the middle of a setlist.

    Although I personally would be happy for it just to be shown correctly on the track selection screen.
  • NoThru22NoThru22 Road Warrior
    edited April 2011
    Oh yeah, and I forgot to mention this before, check out Steve and Lindley Band - Backyard Buildyard, which was one of the test songs released for the RBN. It has pro drums, so Harmonix knew how to author pro drums in the RBN before the service was ever even released, so this whole situation could have been avoided. Maybe stuff like this is why they don't want us having access to the Xbox.com links!
  • HMXLachesisHMXLachesis Harmonix Alum
    edited April 2011
    You can learn about our trials and tribulations with RBN Pro Drums on the RBN-specific podcast from 3/25. http://www.rockband.com/blog/episode039 (The applicable section starts around 31:30 or so.)
  • NoThru22NoThru22 Road Warrior
    edited April 2011
    Oo, I am very interested in that!
  • GNFfhqwhgadsGNFfhqwhgads 99% Washed Up
    edited April 2011
    NoThru22;4356719 said:
    so Harmonix knew how to author pro drums in the RBN before the service was ever even released
    Of course they did, it's basically the same thing they used to build THEIR songs.
  • BlasteroidsBlasteroids Road Warrior
    edited April 2011
    GNFfhqwhgads;4343199 said:
    Nothing 'supports' or 'doesn't support' Pro Drums to the engine. All songs have their regular tiering moved over into the Pro column.


    If you're in the wrong mode, pause it, turn all the cymbals off.

    You know what? That comment comes from someone who has never experienced the problem. I played online with a group of people who all had a RBN song which did not have pro-drums support. Yes, I am sure they were ****ing impressed when I could not hit half the notes correctly and had to move down to "standard drum expert" half way into the track because I could not remember every ****ing RBN1.0 song that does not support Pro-Drums correctly before it started.

    It's now at the stage where I want to DELETE tracks I PURCHASED because they do not work AS ADVERTISED IN GAME. Which is a serious issue! Sure if you play on your own a re-start without cymbal is fine, however explain that to 3 online persons when you only find out 2 minutes (when toms are played) into a song that you want to restart it because it does not contain correct pro-mode drum settings!
  • cwilburcwilbur Opening Act
    edited April 2011
    Blasteroids;4369198 said:
    Sure if you play on your own a re-start without cymbal is fine, however explain that to 3 online persons when you only find out 2 minutes (when toms are played) into a song that you want to restart it because it does not contain correct pro-mode drum settings!

    Addendum in support:
    Now add to that the fact that non-drummers* who don't frequent the forums PROBABLY WON'T EVEN KNOW THERE'S A PROBLEM with pro drum authoring on a bunch of the RBN1 tracks, and explaining why you need to restart 2 minutes in becomes even more fun.

    *...and even some drummers - I heard one pro-drummer I was online with make an offhand comment about not liking a lot of the RBN songs "because there's just something wrong with them. There are places where it tells you to play a cymbal and I SWEAR I hear a tom there!" She wasn't aware of the systemic problem or its causes or the places you can try to find out which songs are authored properly or anything. She just knew some RBN songs were off and because of it she decided she didn't really like RBN songs. How many like her do you suppose are out there?
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