Horrible audio mixing...

m_estockm_estock Rising Star
edited May 2011 in The Rock Band Network
When RBN was first announced, this was one of my concerns:

http://youtu.be/-5rbuggGHUY

I'm not saying all of the RBN content is mixed terribly, but it kind of ruins the song (for me at least). One of the Third Eye Blind songs was the same way.

Comments

  • TubaDude49TubaDude49 Road Warrior
    edited May 2011
    I have a strong feeling there might be a subtle stab at me, there was a bunch of backlash about the mixing of my last project
  • m_estockm_estock Rising Star
    edited May 2011
    First off, I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here. The user who made the video put it up recently and I happened to listen to it. I'm not really aware of what's been discussed / not discussed concerning mixing, but I thought I would bring it up to see what the response would be.

    I was just concerned that more songs (better ones at that) would end up this way. That is all.
  • wesjett08wesjett08 Rising Star
    edited May 2011
    The issue is that most authoring companies don't "master" the stems. Audio Mastering ... Specifically this part.
    In addition, "music mastering" engineers may also need to apply corrective equalization and dynamic enhancement in order to improve upon sound translation on all playback systems.
    Most authors will get the stems, Load them into Magma, Adjust some levels and be done with it. Which is a terrible way to go about it. Rock Band has it's own little ways of making things sound wonky or different so you have to change the way you mix things. What sounds great on a cd or iTunes will sound like complete junk on RB.

    Most places simply don't have someone with a good enough ear or an expensive audio mixing and monitoring setup to do high level mixing. Whereas the Guitar Hero team obviously would have a team of mixers with high dollar systems and some college education behind them.

    Sometimes it's also a case of getting bum stems, Which has happened to HMX before. A good example is "Seasons" by The Veer Union. Listen to it in Rock Band and then go listen to the MP3. The RB version is missing a lot of the "corrective" editing that the final commercial mix has. The RB version is basically the raw studio takes without all of that final polish. You'll notice it in the cymbals and overall drum sound. The guitar's don't have the punch of the final mix either., The entire mix is just plain less energetic than the final mix. There's not a lot you can do about that except hound the label for the correct stems, If they even exist.

    :cool:
  • HetzHetz Rising Star
    edited May 2011
    Yeah, Semi Charmed Life is HORRIBLE. Higher by Creed is also screwed up, but not as badly.

    How come it's all the popular songs that get horrible mixes...but some unknown Metal band gets stellar treatment?
  • wesjett08wesjett08 Rising Star
    edited May 2011
    There's generally no rush on the "Unknown Metal Band". More time = better sounding product..
  • m_estockm_estock Rising Star
    edited May 2011
    It's just a bummer when you're playing a series of songs that are mixed well, and then you play a RBN track, and the audio is awful. Especially when it's a song by a well known band like Creed or Seether. Idk call me crazy.
  • MarklefordMarkleford Opening Act
    edited May 2011
    So...

    "horrible" == "different than the album" ?

    or

    "horrible" == "different than GH" ?

    I wouldn't call this "horrible" or "awful" by any measure, but I don't know the original track. GH's version sounds like it scoops out the mids too much to my ears, honestly, but I wouldn't say that's bad either. It's just a preference: I don't like the classic "loudness EQ curve" found on consumer playback systems.

    Also remember, RB will boost the volume of the instrument stem currently being played, altering the mix. If you play with different instruments next time, it will sound even different. Not sure if GH does the same.

    - m
  • m_estockm_estock Rising Star
    edited May 2011
    Markleford;4388247 said:
    So...

    "horrible" == "different than the album" ?

    or

    "horrible" == "different than GH" ?

    I wouldn't call this "horrible" or "awful" by any measure, but I don't know the original track. GH's version sounds like it scoops out the mids too much to my ears, honestly, but I wouldn't say that's bad either. It's just a preference: I don't like the classic "loudness EQ curve" found on consumer playback systems.

    Also remember, RB will boost the volume of the instrument stem currently being played, altering the mix. If you play with different instruments next time, it will sound even different. Not sure if GH does the same.

    - m

    Horrible as in it sounds like junk. Nothing comes through clear in that track.
  • ShoTTySLanKiNShoTTySLanKiN Road Warrior
    edited May 2011
    I could understand Third Eye Blind but Seether sounds just fine, those guys over at Rockgamer have done an amazing job, right on par with HMX.
  • davidshekdavidshek Community Playtester
    edited May 2011
    wesjett08;4387794 said:
    The issue is that most authoring companies don't "master" the stems. Audio Mastering ... Specifically this part.

    No, that's not an issue, because mastering isn't done on stems. Mastering is done on a final mix.
  • wesjett08wesjett08 Rising Star
    edited May 2011
    davidshek;4388966 said:
    No, that's not an issue, because mastering isn't done on stems. Mastering is done on a final mix.

    It can still be applied to the master mix the players will hear. Hence the reason our songs sound basically much exactly the same in game as they do on the album sans for the playability adjustments in regards to volume.
  • davidshekdavidshek Community Playtester
    edited May 2011
    wesjett08;4387794 said:
    The issue is that most authoring companies don't "master" the stems.
    davidshek;4388966 said:
    mastering isn't done on stems. Mastering is done on a final mix.
    wesjett08;4389109 said:
    It can still be applied to the master mix the players will hear.

    So...you're agreeing with me then? :p
  • wesjett08wesjett08 Rising Star
    edited May 2011
    So I didn't word it exactly properly, People can still get my point.
  • DangimarockerDangimarocker Headliner
    edited May 2011
    Hetz;4387799 said:
    Yeah, Semi Charmed Life is HORRIBLE. Higher by Creed is also screwed up, but not as badly.

    How come it's all the popular songs that get horrible mixes...but some unknown Metal band gets stellar treatment?
    Because the metal music already sounds scratchy and ****ty.
  • Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Road Warrior
    edited May 2011
    Dangimarocker;4390911 said:
    Because the metal music already sounds scratchy and ****ty.

    Because the 'popular' music has more at stake. Who's going to complain about the audio mix of a song they won't buy anyway?
  • Nathaniel607Nathaniel607 Opening Act
    edited May 2011
    Santa Claustrophobia;4390945 said:
    Because the 'popular' music has more at stake. Who's going to complain about the audio mix of a song they won't buy anyway?

    Yeah, because no one buys metal on Rock Band Network!

    Oh, wait, I meant the other thing. That metal is by far the most popular genre on RBN. Yeah, that one.
  • DangimarockerDangimarocker Headliner
    edited May 2011
    Nathaniel607;4391146 said:
    Yeah, because no one buys metal on Rock Band Network!

    Oh, wait, I meant the other thing. That metal is by far the most popular genre on RBN. Yeah, that one.

    People buy it because it has harder charts... not because they like the song.
    Have many people that do this.
    I'd much rather listen to Indie than Metal anyday since they can actually sing and not have to scream to qualify as a "singer".
  • CaptainToastehCaptainToasteh Unsigned
    edited May 2011
    Dangimarocker;4391378 said:
    People buy it because it has harder charts... not because they like the song.
    Have many people that do this.
    I'd much rather listen to Indie than Metal anyday since they can actually sing and not have to scream to qualify as a "singer".

    Metal that doesn't have screaming:
    Chasing the Light by Nautiluz
    Flag in Ground by Sonata Arctica
    Anything by Amberian Dawn
    Head up High by Firewind

    I, for one, do like the screaming in songs like those from Between the Buried and Me, Periphery, Meshuggah, etc. I think it adds to the effect of aggressiveness, however it's definitely an acquired taste.
  • Nathaniel607Nathaniel607 Opening Act
    edited May 2011
    Dangimarocker;4391378 said:
    People buy it because it has harder charts... not because they like the song.
    Have many people that do this.
    I'd much rather listen to Indie than Metal anyday since they can actually sing and not have to scream to qualify as a "singer".

    1. A lot of "indie" rock singers, even ones considered good, I can't stand simply because of their whiny, utterly expressionless style.

    2. LOADS of metal doesn't have screaming or only uses it slight. For example, the entire NWOBHM genre.

    3. Don't dismiss screaming. It can be challenging, and, when pulled off correctly, can create a very unique and dramatic feeling. Listen to this;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG7Tvxf-3cU

    Don't think I don't like rock though, just a lot of what people call "indie rock" is crap and also pop-rock/pop-punk just gives me ear-bleeds.
  • DangimarockerDangimarocker Headliner
    edited May 2011
    Nathaniel607;4391917 said:
    1. A lot of "indie" rock singers, even ones considered good, I can't stand simply because of their whiny, utterly expressionless style.

    2. LOADS of metal doesn't have screaming or only uses it slight. For example, the entire NWOBHM genre.

    3. Don't dismiss screaming. It can be challenging, and, when pulled off correctly, can create a very unique and dramatic feeling. Listen to this;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG7Tvxf-3cU

    Don't think I don't like rock though, just a lot of what people call "indie rock" is crap and also pop-rock/pop-punk just gives me ear-bleeds.

    I found that song horrible.. too long.
    And that means you find classic rock singers bad.. some of them had whiny voices.
    Yet you find the band in that link good... which is whispering and screaming... i fell asleep a minute in.
  • DangimarockerDangimarocker Headliner
    edited May 2011
    CaptainToasteh;4391435 said:
    Metal that doesn't have screaming:
    Chasing the Light by Nautiluz
    Flag in Ground by Sonata Arctica
    Anything by Amberian Dawn
    Head up High by Firewind

    I, for one, do like the screaming in songs like those from Between the Buried and Me, Periphery, Meshuggah, etc. I think it adds to the effect of aggressiveness, however it's definitely an acquired taste.

    Yes i know not all metal does but anymore 70%+ of todays metal does because they can make money off it.. and most of the people sound like they are going to die on stage.
    Amberian is talented and shouldn't even be placed next to a screamo band. They couldn't even hold a note by her live.
    Firewind & Sonata are both spectacular.
    I haven't heard the other song as i'm Ps3. but will take a listen when my internet doesn't decide to go take a ****. :P
  • Nathaniel607Nathaniel607 Opening Act
    edited May 2011
    Dangimarocker;4392481 said:
    I found that song horrible.. too long.
    And that means you find classic rock singers bad.. some of them had whiny voices.
    Yet you find the band in that link good... which is whispering and screaming... i fell asleep a minute in.

    Wow, what a short attention span. Of course you'll find it boring if you start ignoring it a minute in - the whole point of that track is that it builds!

    Some classic rock bands did have bad singers, but it seems more prevalent today. Not bad for other people but I just hear it and go arrrghhh. Like this;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcNiKCmWdYE

    Just stop telling off metal bands for singing like that "because they can make money off it". Some do, sure, but that's true in almost any genre. A lot of current metal bands are truly innovating and interesting musicians and you're just shooting them down because you can't stand vocals that are a bit different.
  • CaptainToastehCaptainToasteh Unsigned
    edited May 2011
    Nathaniel607;4392543 said:
    A lot of current metal bands are truly innovating and interesting musicians and you're just shooting them down because you can't stand vocals that are a bit different.
    I think this is a good example of innovation in modern metal. BTBAM incorporates lots of different aspects of different genres from metal to bluegrass to jazz and blues. Even though they do scream in pretty much all of their songs, they also incorporate clean vocals as well in pretty much all of their songs.
  • atalkingfishatalkingfish Opening Act
    edited May 2011
    I dislike screaming. I do like a lot of metal. Saying that all metal has screaming is like saying that all pizza has olives on it. It is simply not true. I can't stand screaming and I listen to a ton of metal.
  • DangimarockerDangimarocker Headliner
    edited May 2011
    Nathaniel607;4392543 said:
    Wow, what a short attention span. Of course you'll find it boring if you start ignoring it a minute in - the whole point of that track is that it builds!

    Some classic rock bands did have bad singers, but it seems more prevalent today. Not bad for other people but I just hear it and go arrrghhh. Like this;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcNiKCmWdYE

    Just stop telling off metal bands for singing like that "because they can make money off it". Some do, sure, but that's true in almost any genre. A lot of current metal bands are truly innovating and interesting musicians and you're just shooting them down because you can't stand vocals that are a bit different.

    That's not indie... your confusing good indie with Pop rock...
    Actually at least 6 bands (local) were pure clean vocal metal bands here and they added a screamer just to make it anywhere.
    I hate that.
  • Santa ClaustrophobiaSanta Claustrophobia Road Warrior
    edited May 2011
    nathaniel607;4392543 said:
    wow, what a short attention span. Of course you'll find it boring if you start ignoring it a minute in -

    Boring!
  • jawillroyjawillroy Rising Star
    edited May 2011
    Santa Claustrophobia;4392751 said:
    Boring!

    tl,dr
  • HMXLachesisHMXLachesis Harmonix Alum
    edited May 2011
    You know what? (TOPIC CHANGE) I like Kraft macaroni and cheese. A lot.

    And for the longest time, friends would try to convince me to try their favorite mac and cheese recipe. Or, worse, they would make mac and cheese for me. "Isn't this great?" they would ask enthusiastically. They were my friends, so I would say something polite. But then they'd make the mistake of asking the dangerous question - "Isn't this better than Kraft?"

    (OR MAYBE IT WASN'T A TOPIC CHANGE) And when people ask that question, I have the nasty habit of telling the truth. Because no matter how good your mac and cheese is, Kraft has massive nostalgia value for me and I like it better and it's special to me.

    Taste is taste. (SUBTLE LIKE A BRICK, ISN'T SHE?) Sharing your favorite artists with other people is cool - and it's a driving force of the RBN. But some people just aren't going to share your taste, and that's OK.

    On some level, I wrote this post because it makes me sad when people tell me that my taste sucks (and that's happened a few times recently, and it made me sad.) But on some level, I wrote it because it seemed nicer than warning the mods to keep an eye on this thread.

    Now, if you'll scuse me, I'm going to be over here with my Steam-Powered Gira-- er, Kraft dinner, and you can hang out over there with your sriracha-topped cheddar spirals, and we'll all be happy.
  • ArcanonArcanon Rising Star
    edited May 2011
    HMXLachesis;4392974 said:
    Now, if you'll scuse me, I'm going to be over here with my Steam-Powered Gira-- er, Kraft dinner, and you can hang out over there with your sriracha-topped cheddar spirals, and we'll all be happy.
    I want your dinner. Too bad I'm nowhere near an Xbo...er, microwave, or else I would be enjoying it myself.
  • TubaDude49TubaDude49 Road Warrior
    edited May 2011
    HMXLachesis;4392974 said:

    On some level, I wrote this post because it makes me sad when people tell me that my taste sucks (and that's happened a few times recently, and it made me sad.)
    HMXLachesis;4392974 said:
    You know what? (TOPIC CHANGE) I like Kraft macaroni and cheese. A lot.
    Your taste seems to be awesome. Carry on
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