Time to filter (2x Bass) "songs" out of the site's "total songs released" count. :)

PeridotWeaponPeridotWeapon Opening Act
edited July 2011 in The Rock Band Network
It seems everyone now realizes "Stomp X2" is a great way to advertise their song twice. A mammoth ELEVEN (2x Bass) versions passed this week (although at least a couple will get pulled).

Release complications aside, that bumps us up to 72 (2x Bass) versions, and we'll probably be at a hundred before the summer's out. Each and every one considered a "new song" by the website, when it's really just a "chart alternative" for a song that already exists.


Yeah, I know. It's a minor detail and I'm quibbling over technicalities. ;)


Just irks me that the website claims there are "2,984" songs available right now when the number's actually much different.

If you include musically unique content, you get 2,948. (That number drops by about ten if you omit songs that are no longer available, like Atomic or Snoop's Upside Ya Head.)

If you included ALL content (pre-RB3 versions and 2x Bass versions), you'd get 3,035. (The website's count misses a lot of songs like Country Pack 02 and the Ozzy Pack exclusives, and probably isn't adding this week's RBN songs yet. Not to mention that it still thinks Enter Sandman is in Rock Band 3!)


Right, meaningless rant over. You can go on to more relevant topics now. :p

Comments

  • PankrazzoPankrazzo Road Warrior
    edited July 2011
    HMX is responsible for their web presence & advertising, they either should sort this out some way or inflate the song count to make it seem more impressive than it actually is.

    This will be pretty funny when they hit 5k releases, but only actually have 4k unique songs.
  • SideshowNSideshowN Rising Star
    edited July 2011
    All I ask is that 2X bass pedal songs be sold for 80 points so getting both versions isnt so costly.
  • LuigiHannLuigiHann Stormtrooper
    edited July 2011
    GNFfhqwhgads;4453152 said:
    Yes, and how should it do that? The original(RBN1.0)? The updated version(RBN2.0)? The 'fully-featured' version(2x bass)??
    It doesn't matter which one counts as the real one. They're all real, but they're all the same song, so it does make sense to count them as one. OP isn't suggesting that duplicates not be included in the list, he's just suggesting that they not be counted as separate songs. I think that's debatable, but I don't think "which version is the real version" is a relevant question. With proper database coding it's entirely possible to present each version as equally valid while still only including one of them in the numeric count, and which one it counts is immaterial as that information would be invisible to the user.
  • GNFfhqwhgadsGNFfhqwhgads 99% Washed Up
    edited July 2011
    SideshowN;4453158 said:
    All I ask is that 2X bass pedal songs be sold for 80 points so getting both versions isnt so costly.
    You're not meant to get both. Picture this, a 160MSP song. 2x version is 80MSP. 2x version DOES still have every other instrument, with identical charts to the one twice its price. Now, everyone who doesn't play drums buys the cheaper version, so Harmonix gets less money, authoring groups get less money, and labels/bands get less money and have declining interest in supporting RBN if that's how it plays out.
  • PankrazzoPankrazzo Road Warrior
    edited July 2011
    SideshowN;4453158 said:
    All I ask is that 2X bass pedal songs be sold for 80 points so getting both versions isnt so costly.

    Not going to happen, because most people would buy the cheaper one then. This 2x bass pedal model we currently have to deal with is absolutely half-assed, and needs a fix with the next RB :(
  • PeridotWeaponPeridotWeapon Opening Act
    edited July 2011
    GNFfhqwhgads;4453152 said:
    Will having the regular version turn them off the song if they want a challenge and there's no 2x bass version sitting next to it in the list?

    In a perfect world, you'd indicate only the DEFAULT version of RBN songs that have alternate versions, and flag them accordingly:

    Search for Africa, you'll find the default version. Right by the name, in a bright, vibrant link, "To purchase this song with upgrades for Rock Band 3 features, click Here for the Trial or Here for the Full Version." A similar thing for (2x Bass) versions.

    It'd require Harmonix intervention in a "by fans, for fans (but we get paid for it too!)" project, so I doubt it's high on their priority list.


    And I don't see how they don't count as separate songs is "debatable." Otherwise, you're saying that if there's a song with two prominent guitar parts and five different singers, you can release it TWENTY-FOUR TIMES if you want to have every possible combination of lead guitar, three singers, and standard/2x Bass drumming, and they'd all be a unique song. :)
  • Bront20Bront20 The Writing's on the Wall
    edited July 2011
    I think the issue is related to how the leaderboards work, and beyond that, the different versions have different difficulties and different features.

    I think what you want is a unique song count, which is not what the song count is for, the song count is unique tracks available on the platform in some fashion, which includes the legacy, RB3, RB3 3x Bass, and the Dance Remix versions.
  • PankrazzoPankrazzo Road Warrior
    edited July 2011
    Bront20;4453231 said:
    Dance Remix versions

    What?
  • DragoonXDDragoonXD Road Warrior
    edited July 2011
    Bront20;4453231 said:
    RB3 3x Bass
    Who has 3 feet?

    And the only remix so far is of "White Knuckles", right?
  • Bront20Bront20 The Writing's on the Wall
    edited July 2011
    Pankrazzo;4453232 said:
    What?
    [Insert witty response that it was a joke here]
    DragoonXD;4453234 said:
    Who has 3 feet?
    [Insert dirty forum inappropriate joke here.]
  • SirDavidTLynchSirDavidTLynch Headliner
    edited July 2011
    PeridotWeapon;4453229 said:
    And I don't see how they don't count as separate songs is "debatable." Otherwise, you're saying that if there's a song with two prominent guitar parts and five different singers, you can release it TWENTY-FOUR TIMES if you want to have every possible combination of lead guitar, three singers, and standard/2x Bass drumming, and they'd all be a unique song. :)
    When has anyone ever authored different tracks of the same song and released it twice?
  • NoThru22NoThru22 Road Warrior
    edited July 2011
    Pankrazzo;4453157 said:
    HMX is responsible for their web presence & advertising, they either should sort this out some way or inflate the song count to make it seem more impressive than it actually is.

    This will be pretty funny when they hit 5k releases, but only actually have 4k unique songs.
    You really think it's possible that they'll be 1,000 re-releases or 2x versions by time we hit 5,000 songs? It'll be more like 200.
  • PeridotWeaponPeridotWeapon Opening Act
    edited July 2011
    SirDavidTLynch;4453383 said:
    When has anyone ever authored different tracks of the same song and released it twice?
    Eighty-seven times. 72 with Drums, 15 with RB3 versions. All of those are the same songs, just "chartually" different (and in the case of the RB3 songs, remixed to emphasize different parts of the song than before).

    If a song was re-released and it was MUSICALLY different (like White Knuckles, the Rush covers, etc.), then it's a different song. Your mileage may vary.
    NoThru22;4453453 said:
    You really think it's possible that they'll be 1,000 re-releases or 2x versions by time we hit 5,000 songs? It'll be more like 200.
    Keep in mind that if you include the (2x Bass) songs that are still in limbo and could have appeared today, FORTY of them have been released in the last TWO MONTHS alone.

    1,000 is a bit too high to be realistic, but 500 "melodic duplicates" are quite believable at the 5,000 song mark.


    There's really no reason NOT to release a (2x Bass) version. For spending an extra half hour of effort, you get the ability to:
    * Advertise your song twice
    * Sell your song (potentially twice) to the double bass audience
    * Sell your song twice to the (very niche) group that double-purchases high scoring songs to boost their Total Score

    If you DON'T release one, your song may get lost in the shuffle by the players that enjoy double bass, and will pick a different song instead of yours. It's not like there's a limited amount of content to choose from! :)
  • SirDavidTLynchSirDavidTLynch Headliner
    edited July 2011
    PeridotWeapon;4453772 said:
    Eighty-seven times. 72 with Drums, 15 with RB3 versions. All of those are the same songs, just "chartually" different (and in the case of the RB3 songs, remixed to emphasize different parts of the song than before).
    The double bass versions use the same drum track. I was more referring to the hypothetical example that I quoted that you posted, where somebody can author different guitar parts and release them as separate songs. When has that been done before?

    (I sure hope double bass players don't limit themselves to just one genre just because they own a little extra hardware)
  • PeridotWeaponPeridotWeapon Opening Act
    edited July 2011
    SirDavidTLynch;4454159 said:
    The double bass versions use the same drum track. I was more referring to the hypothetical example that I quoted that you posted, where somebody can author different guitar parts and release them as separate songs. When has that been done before?

    (I sure hope double bass players don't limit themselves to just one genre just because they own a little extra hardware)
    Only place I can think of isn't in Rock Band - Suicide & Redemption from Death Magnetic.

    And wait, that game considers THOSE separate songs, too. Crap, I'm three months late in my "display the right number of songs in your game" rant. :D


    And while I'm not sure how many players limit themselves to one genre due to bass action, I imagine a lot of them do so because of difficulty. About half of the Nightmare/Impossible drum songs are Metal, and that's BEFORE you add in the 70+ dupes.
  • GNFfhqwhgadsGNFfhqwhgads 99% Washed Up
    edited July 2011
    PeridotWeapon;4454219 said:
    Only place I can think of isn't in Rock Band - Suicide & Redemption from Death Magnetic.
    Those are two separate versions, though. They're not the same song with a different guitar stem pulled out in each version, the guitar track on one doesn't exist on the other.
  • PeridotWeaponPeridotWeapon Opening Act
    edited July 2011
    GNFfhqwhgads;4454223 said:
    Those are two separate versions, though. They're not the same song with a different guitar stem pulled out in each version, the guitar track on one doesn't exist on the other.
    Which is why it'd be a "gray area" if something like that ever did happen.

    But saying a (2x Bass) song is different from the standard version basically means that the Easy, Normal, Hard and Expert charts should all be considered unique songs as well.

    Regardless, it's not an important enough issue to fix. If they won't remove Enter Sandman from the RB3 setlist, they're certainly not going to fix the numbers.
  • SideshowNSideshowN Rising Star
    edited July 2011
    GNFfhqwhgads;4453162 said:
    You're not meant to get both. Picture this, a 160MSP song. 2x version is 80MSP. 2x version DOES still have every other instrument, with identical charts to the one twice its price. Now, everyone who doesn't play drums buys the cheaper version, so Harmonix gets less money, authoring groups get less money, and labels/bands get less money and have declining interest in supporting RBN if that's how it plays out.
    Sorry, I meant to say that both the single kick version and 2X bass pedal version would be 80 points each so you would spend 160 for both which is what the buyer should of paid in the first place because all of this kick pedal shenanigans should of been implemented into one file. I also play online with alot of people and most people do prefer the single kick versions while I prefer the double kick versions to there is a conflict there if we want to play those songs.
  • PeridotWeaponPeridotWeapon Opening Act
    edited July 2011
    SideshowN;4454786 said:
    Sorry, I meant to say that both the single kick version and 2X bass pedal version would be 80 points each so you would spend 160 for both which is what the buyer should of paid in the first place because all of this kick pedal shenanigans should of been implemented into one file.
    If they allowed "packs" of songs on the Rock Band Network, that idea could actually work - the song could come only as part of a "2 Pack" for 160 points, and you could delete the 2x Bass version afterwards if you had no interest in using up two slots.

    Of course, the flip side is that without it helping their revenue, the charters would have no desire to CREATE 2x Bass versions ...
  • SirDavidTLynchSirDavidTLynch Headliner
    edited July 2011
    SideshowN;4454786 said:
    Sorry, I meant to say that both the single kick version and 2X bass pedal version would be 80 points each so you would spend 160 for both which is what the buyer should of paid in the first place because all of this kick pedal shenanigans should of been implemented into one file. I also play online with alot of people and most people do prefer the single kick versions while I prefer the double kick versions to there is a conflict there if we want to play those songs.
    Or people only buy the one version they want and the authoring company and artist lose nearly half the money they would have made from the $2.
    PeridotWeapon;4454796 said:
    If they allowed "packs" of songs on the Rock Band Network, that idea could actually work - the song could come only as part of a "2 Pack" for 160 points, and you could delete the 2x Bass version afterwards if you had no interest in using up two slots.

    Of course, the flip side is that without it helping their revenue, the charters would have no desire to CREATE 2x Bass versions ...
    -There's no precedent for 2-packs; Harmonix have never released one even though they release two songs from the same artist all the time
    -You can't delete one song in a pack
    -Even if packs were allowed, pack exclusives would probably make the backend work more complicated and wouldn't be allowed as a result. Harmonix themselves have only released two packs with exclusive songs, one of which was free.
  • SideshowNSideshowN Rising Star
    edited July 2011
    I play Pro Drums more than any other instrument in the game so to me I want both versions of the songs and I will pay the 4 dollars to get both if need be. This doesnt mean I'm happy to fork over 4 dollars for 1 song but I still do it because I love to play this game and I'm a huge supporter. I wonder what people would do if all of a sudden there were 2 different guitar versions of songs. Rhythm and lead versions of songs so to speak. I'm sure hardcore guitarist would want to buy both versions of those songs as well. Yes, I wish there were some sort of a "pack" option so people can save a little bit of money.
  • ExayleExayle Road Warrior
    edited July 2011
    So just out of complete curiosity... I'm not much of a drummer [at all], but I do love to have my DLC readily available for everyone to play. Is it safe to assume that the "regular" versions of songs are purchased more than the x2 Bass versions?

    Furthermore, for you pro drummers out there. What's it like, playing a "standard" version of a x2 Bass track? I imagine it to be akin to a Hard guitar chart... where you hear and know there's more going on - at least in terms of bass pedal - but only have to play a fraction of it. Seems doable, just inconvenient if you're playing by ear. But I mean, is it really that big of a hassle to play the standard version when you're forced to?
  • GNFfhqwhgadsGNFfhqwhgads 99% Washed Up
    edited July 2011
    Exayle;4455645 said:
    So just out of complete curiosity... I'm not much of a drummer [at all], but I do love to have my DLC readily available for everyone to play. Is it safe to assume that the "regular" versions of songs are purchased more than the x2 Bass versions?
    Yes. Ranging from 2:1 to 3:1.
    Furthermore, for you pro drummers out there. What's it like, playing a "standard" version of a x2 Bass track? I imagine it to be akin to a Hard guitar chart... where you hear and know there's more going on - at least in terms of bass pedal - but only have to play a fraction of it. Seems doable, just inconvenient if you're playing by ear. But I mean, is it really that big of a hassle to play the standard version when you're forced to?
    It's no different than hearing hi-hat pedal work. Even then, you might HEAR two bass pedals, but you only have one plugged in, so what you're playing is accurate.
  • DragoonXDDragoonXD Road Warrior
    edited July 2011
    Exayle;4455645 said:

    Furthermore, for you pro drummers out there. What's it like, playing a "standard" version of a x2 Bass track? I imagine it to be akin to a Hard guitar chart... where you hear and know there's more going on - at least in terms of bass pedal - but only have to play a fraction of it. Seems doable, just inconvenient if you're playing by ear. But I mean, is it really that big of a hassle to play the standard version when you're forced to?
    It was certainly a little weird at first, but I've gotten used to it. Hearing more than I'm playing doesn't bother me; I can easily play along with the notes, with the sound off. I even have two pedals, but I don't want to support this double bass setup. I won't be able to play any of these double bass versions with friends online (because they all buy the regular versions).
  • PeridotWeaponPeridotWeapon Opening Act
    edited July 2011
    SirDavidTLynch;4454798 said:
    -You can't delete one song in a pack
    True. But they'd have to find a way to "fake" packs for RBN anyway. Since they're treated as "Indie Game" files as far as Microsoft is concerned (and have a 100 MB size cap), there's no way to make the Rock Band Network support multiple songs from a single file. A pack could only be done as several individual files purchased at the same time - and I don't think there's precedent for that by Microsoft, either.

    Regardless, we're stuck with (2x Bass) as it is. In another two weeks, we'll have more 2x Bass versions of songs than there are songs on the Rock Band 3 disk. That's a bit too much "fan-made" content to find a way to "retcon" into an officially supported method down the line.

    Still, if you'd told me they were going to try to add a new instrument into a game that already supported nearly 2,000 songs without it at the time, I'd have said you were crazy. So anything's possible. :)
  • dansolodansolo Rising Star
    edited July 2011
    DragoonXD;4455711 said:
    It was certainly a little weird at first, but I've gotten used to it. Hearing more than I'm playing doesn't bother me; I can easily play along with the notes, with the sound off. I even have two pedals, but I don't want to support this double bass setup. I won't be able to play any of these double bass versions with friends online (because they all buy the regular versions).

    What about playing the outro on Peace Sells with one pedal. That really doesn't bother you at all?
  • DragoonXDDragoonXD Road Warrior
    edited July 2011
    I can hit that with one pedal.
  • dansolodansolo Rising Star
    edited July 2011
    DragoonXD;4456917 said:
    I can hit that with one pedal.

    That's not what I meant, it would be a lot better if the bass was fully charted.
    ps. I just made a couple morbid battles for pro drums on ps3
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