Question on Bass Authoring

jeronemitchelljeronemitchell Road Warrior
edited September 2011 in The Rock Band Network
I picked up The Blue News' "Just A Game" and was struck by how many chords appear in the bass chart. It is a 3 dot song, but I suck at chords to the point where I had to drop down to Medium from Expert to get through it. I've noticed the same on Justin Joseph Edwards' "I Want You to See", and I believe that was the case on "Bedroom Intruder" as well. It basically feels like the bass is being charted as though it were guitar.

Is this normal? Am I off, or simply picking unusually complex (or layered) songs for bass? Can someone give me some insight, because it does feel like the RBN songs are harder than listed on bass.

Comments

  • OscarvariumOscarvarium Rising Star
    edited September 2011
    In almost all situations, chords are authored wherever there is a chord in the audio for that track. It has nothing to do with authoring it 'like guitar' or the author's preference, with the exception of certain borderline cases.

    I believe in the Blue News songs the second guitar is charted on bass, similar to Rodrigo y Gabriela - Buster Voodoo, so you're technically playing a guitar chart there. Bed Intruder is an electronic song so the part that is charted on bass could just as easily been put on guitar (notice there's no guitar chart?). Looks like you are just choosing songs which have chord-heavy bass tracks, because generally bass players avoid using chords and this is certainly the case in the vast majority of songs.
  • jeronemitchelljeronemitchell Road Warrior
    edited September 2011
    Oscarvarium;4504437 said:
    In almost all situations, chords are authored wherever there is a chord in the audio for that track. It has nothing to do with authoring it 'like guitar' or the author's preference, with the exception of certain borderline cases.

    I believe in the Blue News songs the second guitar is charted on bass, similar to Rodrigo y Gabriela - Buster Voodoo, so you're technically playing a guitar chart there. Bed Intruder is an electronic song so the part that is charted on bass could just as easily been put on guitar (notice there's no guitar chart?). Looks like you are just choosing songs which have chord-heavy bass tracks, because generally bass players avoid using chords and this is certainly the case in the vast majority of songs.

    That's really interesting. It does explain a lot (I haven't had to pull back to Medium on bass for a while... but I do play Medium when I'm on guitar). I wondered whether or not it was a genre thing; JJE is jazz, which, like blues, is not shocking to have more complex bass in.

    This also, going off the top of my head, explains Hitman Blues Band, which I remember being very challenged on.

    However... "Bed Intruder" I question. Are those explicitly chords as well?
  • SheSaidSheSaidSheSaidSheSaid Washed Up
    edited September 2011
    I've been wondering about this, too. In general, there are very few chords on bass. There are, of course, obvious exceptions that prove the rule. Is there any standard to what is and isn't allowed on charts at particular difficulty levels? I know there's some rules for keys about how many notes can be in a chord on Medium or Hard and how far apart the notes can be (IIRC no chords at all on Easy), but is there anything like this for the other instruments? Bass chords seem like the most obvious example, but anything else?

    For that matter, how is tiering determined? Is it what the author says, period, or does the peer review process factor in?
  • ZemanatorZemanator Rising Star
    edited September 2011
    SheSaidSheSaid;4504564 said:


    For that matter, how is tiering determined? Is it what the author says, period, or does the peer review process factor in?

    the author ultimately has the final say, but if you disagree with the tiering you usually mention it in the playtest process, and the author almost always changes it accordingly
  • DragoonXDDragoonXD Road Warrior
    edited September 2011
    Zemanator;4504628 said:
    the author ultimately has the final say, but if you disagree with the tiering you usually mention it in the playtest process, and the author almost always changes it accordingly
    I don't think tiering can ever be right.

    Also, you should play the Motorhead songs on bass. ;)
  • ZemanatorZemanator Rising Star
    edited September 2011
    well, you're right. tiering will ALWAYS be subjective, but it can be close..
  • SheSaidSheSaidSheSaidSheSaid Washed Up
    edited September 2011
    DragoonXD;4504634 said:
    I don't think tiering can ever be right.
    True, you can't please everybody. Which is why I generally don't care when I perceive tiering to be 1 dot off. But 2 or more is kind of irksome. Take RB3 for example. "Beast and the Harlot" is 5 dots on guitar when it very, very, very obviously should be devil tier. But that's not a huge difference, so whatever. "Antibodies" should also VERY obviously be devil tier, but it's...2 dots?!? I think "lolwut" is the appropriate response. (And it works the other way, too - "Killing Loneliness" at 5 dots when it should maaaaaybe be 2 really sticks out, but "The Power of Love" at 5 dots when 4 would be my assessment hardly bothers me).
  • FairwoodStudiosFairwoodStudios Road Warrior
    edited September 2011
    SheSaidSheSaid;4504564 said:
    I've been wondering about this, too. In general, there are very few chords on bass. There are, of course, obvious exceptions that prove the rule. Is there any standard to what is and isn't allowed on charts at particular difficulty levels? I know there's some rules for keys about how many notes can be in a chord on Medium or Hard and how far apart the notes can be (IIRC no chords at all on Easy), but is there anything like this for the other instruments? Bass chords seem like the most obvious example, but anything else?

    For that matter, how is tiering determined? Is it what the author says, period, or does the peer review process factor in?

    There are few chords authored on bass because there's few chords played on bass. Guitar and bass follow the exact same rules in terms of reductions and allowed authoring:

    Expert: Up to three-note chords, green-orange three-note chords not permitted
    Hard: Up to two-note chords, green-orange not permitted, usually follows 8th spacing
    Medium: No 1-4 (green-blue/red-orange) chords or green-orange, usually follows quarter-note spacing, focus on contiguous four notes
    Easy: No chords at all, usually follows half-note spacing, focus on contiguous three notes
    General: Chords on Expert should be chords on reductions as appropriate, lower difficulties should not have notes where Expert does not

    I've always said there's surprisingly few "rules" in authoring, most are "guidelines" because there can be edge cases where going against standards actually works better. Guitar-on-bass isn't really one of those since the standards are identical, but still.

    And we had both The Blue News songs tiered one higher on bass out of the gate (because of all the chords), both times we got told to knock it down one. I wasn't really going to argue it.
  • DangimarockerDangimarocker Headliner
    edited September 2011
    SheSaidSheSaid;4504641 said:
    True, you can't please everybody. Which is why I generally don't care when I perceive tiering to be 1 dot off. But 2 or more is kind of irksome. Take RB3 for example. "Beast and the Harlot" is 5 dots on guitar when it very, very, very obviously should be devil tier. But that's not a huge difference, so whatever. "Antibodies" should also VERY obviously be devil tier, but it's...2 dots?!? I think "lolwut" is the appropriate response. (And it works the other way, too - "Killing Loneliness" at 5 dots when it should maaaaaybe be 2 really sticks out, but "The Power of Love" at 5 dots when 4 would be my assessment hardly bothers me).

    I agree Antibodies is tiered wrong.
  • PowerGamer990PowerGamer990 Opening Act
    edited September 2011
    FairwoodStudios;4504651 said:
    Hard: Up to two-note chords, green-orange not permitted
    I find it interesting that HMX has broken these rules in several recent songs. "When I'm Gone" by 3 Doors Down has a three-note chord after the first chorus on hard (I'm pretty sure "25 or 6 to 4" also has one or two), and "Love is a Battlefield" by Pat Benatar has green-orange chords in every chorus after the first, I believe. Are there situations where these rules are allowed to be broken, or is HMX immune to these rules for the official DLC?

    (Please note that I'm just curious; I have no problem with the way HMX charted the songs.)

    EDIT: I should probably clarify that I'm talking about hard guitar, not bass. Sorry for the slight off-topic.
  • LuigiHannLuigiHann Stormtrooper
    edited September 2011
    jeronemitchell;4504527 said:
    However... "Bed Intruder" I question. Are those explicitly chords as well?

    Yeah, but they're keyboard/synth chords, which is why they don't really sound like guitar or bass chords I suppose
  • SheSaidSheSaidSheSaidSheSaid Washed Up
    edited September 2011
    PowerGamer990;4504744 said:
    Are there situations where these rules are allowed to be broken, or is HMX immune to these rules for the official DLC?

    Remember, they're allowed to release songs longer than 10 minutes as well. So I'd presume it's the latter.
  • ThatAuthoringGroupThatAuthoringGroup Numero Uno Super **** Fanboy #1
    edited September 2011
    PowerGamer990;4504744 said:
    I find it interesting that HMX has broken these rules in several recent songs. "When I'm Gone" by 3 Doors Down has a three-note chord after the first chorus on hard (I'm pretty sure "25 or 6 to 4" also has one or two), and "Love is a Battlefield" by Pat Benatar has green-orange chords in every chorus after the first, I believe. Are there situations where these rules are allowed to be broken, or is HMX immune to these rules for the official DLC?

    (Please note that I'm just curious; I have no problem with the way HMX charted the songs.)

    EDIT: I should probably clarify that I'm talking about hard guitar, not bass. Sorry for the slight off-topic.
    Also don't forget that since HMX is the originators of the rules, they'll probably test the waters and do things differently with DLC before that trickles down to RBN.

    Look at the early dlc with sustains of the same color that are connected to the next note, blue and orange notes not allowed on easy and medium (just orange), and pro drum authoring as examples of things changing over the years.

    So the game is ever evolving in subtle ways, but it doesn't happen all at once.

    Of course this could have just been an overlooked charting gaff ;)
  • turnitup321turnitup321 Opening Act
    edited September 2011
    PowerGamer990;4504744 said:
    I find it interesting that HMX has broken these rules in several recent songs. "When I'm Gone" by 3 Doors Down has a three-note chord after the first chorus on hard (I'm pretty sure "25 or 6 to 4" also has one or two), and "Love is a Battlefield" by Pat Benatar has green-orange chords in every chorus after the first, I believe. Are there situations where these rules are allowed to be broken, or is HMX immune to these rules for the official DLC?

    (Please note that I'm just curious; I have no problem with the way HMX charted the songs.)

    EDIT: I should probably clarify that I'm talking about hard guitar, not bass. Sorry for the slight off-topic.

    Quote HMX: Screw the rules, we have money! (XD)
  • PowerGamer990PowerGamer990 Opening Act
    edited September 2011
    ThatAuthoringGroup;4504991 said:
    Also don't forget that since HMX is the originators of the rules, they'll probably test the waters and do things differently with DLC before that trickles down to RBN.

    Look at the early dlc with sustains of the same color that are connected to the next note, blue and orange notes not allowed on easy and medium (just orange), and pro drum authoring as examples of things changing over the years.

    So the game is ever evolving in subtle ways, but it doesn't happen all at once.

    Of course this could have just been an overlooked charting gaff ;)
    I suppose they could be testing the waters, in a way. I mean, it's not like these are the only songs that do those things. I know "The Leaving Song Pt. II" by AFI, "Don't Look Back in Anger" by Oasis, and "Behind Blue Eyes" by the Who all have three-note chords on hard ("Behind Blue Eyes" has a ton of them) and "Savior" by Rise Against has green-orange chords; but all of those were released quite a while ago, so maybe they just throw them in every now and again to see how people feel about them now? I don't mind three-note chords as long as there isn't many of them. I can hit them as long as there's sufficient time to position my fingers before they appear, or if it's something easy like blue-orange -> red-blue-orange. Those green-orange chords throw me, though. Took me a while to FC "Love is a Battlefield".
    turnitup321;4505031 said:
    Quote HMX: Screw the rules, we have money! (XD)
    ^This is WIN. XD
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