THE NUMBERS AREN'T THERE, i.e., Here's why there won't be any more Beatles DLC:

gdBOOMgdBOOM Unsigned
Okay, first of all, I don't come to the forums very often. When I do, it's usually because I'm looking for something specific. But, I play this game for hours on end nearly every day. I've got around 1,250 songs on RB3, but I play TB:RB way more than RB3. I'm excited about the new 2112 DLC, but I still love this Beatles game. Like so many others, I've been hoping that we'd eventually get some new Beatles DLC, but as my rankings improve on each song, it's becoming apparent to me that the numbers aren't there to sustain any new content.

I'm currently ranked 172 in the solo Drum Career leaderboards on X-Box, with a score of 5,010,000. I've got #1 rankings on 18 songs right now, and this is where it becomes painfully clear how few of us there actually are. For example, I recently became the 139th person to achieve the #1 ranking on I Am The Walrus. Now, really, that song is part of the game disc, and based on difficulty it seems to me that number is way low. In contrast, I long ago became the 2,019th person to achieve #1 on Michelle, which WAS DLC. Sure, it's an easier song, but SO easy that this number should be WAY higher, if there were that many people who bought it. A month or two ago, I became the 21st person to hit #1 on Lovely Rita. These kinds of numbers make me understand why Viacom was so disappointed that they wanted out! And these numbers tell me that Harmonix is not lying when they say they don't see any profit potential in future Beatles DLC. Bummer!!!

Comments

  • gdBOOMgdBOOM Unsigned
    edited January 2012
    SheSaidSheSaid;4585740 said:
    Yup, that's the classic "everybody must play on expert~!" fallacy. I didn't bother to bring up the fact that the overwhelming majority of people who play Rock Band play on Medium...
    Is this true? I mean, I play guitar and bass on medium, but I've been trying to conquer hard, because eventually I'd like to get every achievement from this game. Don't get me started on achievements, though, because that's a whole other ball of wax!
    SheSaidSheSaid;4585740 said:
    ...and in an arguably even more "casual gamer" friendly title like TB:RB, drum #1's (expert FC's with the optimal path) are even more meaningless.
    Well, now that's just hurtful! Everybody tries to dis Ringo and say he was so simple, and in fact some of the tracks weren't that hard to master. And I'll admit that the optimal path is sometimes hard to find, so that in itself keeps a lot of people from achieving #1 ranks. In fact, I haven't found it yet for Yellow Submarine or A Hard Day's Night, two of the easiest songs to get 100% on but seemingly impossible to get to #1 on. Now, on the former, I'm unable to get any closer than 1000 points from #1, and I'm ranked 366. Initially, it was 364, but two more people have managed to break through that barrier within the last 9 months, bringing the total number of people who have managed to find a better path than me to 365. I don't even know how many of us there are at 365, but it's probably not a whole lot, as the track that got me to this spot took a lot of trial and error to find, more than the casual gamer is going to try, anyhow. So, yeah, that's definitely going to keep the number of people at #1 low, for those songs. But that's what's so weird about this game: It's not the drumming in itself but the strategy of when to go into OD that gets you to the top. And then again, sometimes it IS the drumming. Ringo's NOT all that easy on a lot of these songs, and I assure you that my #1 positions are NOT meaningless, any more than any other gamer score from any games whatsoever. Even LESS meaningless than those, actually, because I can apply these motions to a real drumset, and actually play these songs for real. And when I nail a vocal harmony, that's something I'm really doing. Not the same thing can be said for bass or guitar, nor in fact for many other games at all. So, yeah, not meaningless at all!
  • lvmathemagicianlvmathemagician Road Warrior
    edited January 2012
    gdBOOM;4586731 said:
    Well, why are you asking THEM? Ask ME, I'm the only one who can answer for myself. Unless, of course, the question was rhetorical? Hey, was his question rhetorical?

    WHy didn't you answer the question? I smell troll.
  • SheSaidSheSaidSheSaidSheSaid Washed Up
    edited January 2012
    Multi-quote button. Please use it.
  • gdBOOMgdBOOM Unsigned
    edited January 2012
    nascarfan19;4585830 said:
    Exactly. There could be 2 people with an FC and 20,000 with 99%. You can't expect everyone to be amazing.
    I'm not expecting everyone to be amazing. Is that what it sounds like? But some of these songs, well, I'm just blown away by how few people there are at or even near the top. That's another thing, I'm NOT using FCs to make my point, but I AM using the leaderboards overall. And there ARE players on medium and hard listed on a lot of the leaderboards. Here's what I'm saying: using the leaderboards, I can get a rough estimate of how many people play this game on X-Box. I figure it's about the same for Playstation, and I've heard that Wii has MAYBE 10% of the TOTAL audience, so about 5% of the number on X-Box, I think? See, here's the thing... I thought the number was in the MILLIONS, but it's NOT! It's only in the Hundred-Thousands, and of those, probably only 10% are currently active and online. Now, you gave me an example number of 20,002. Perhaps fortunately, the number IS quite larger than that, but still substantially less than I had assumed, and in the end, not enough to sustain our thirst for more. There's just not enough of US (you guys and me, all of us who want nothing more than MORE!), and even though Harmonix keeps making statements that seem hopeful on the surface, it's really a false hope they're sustaining, which at this stage seems cruel to me. They won't say it, so I will: There will never be another DLC title made available for TB:RB. That's reality, my friends. So sure am I of this statement, that IF I'm EVER proven wrong, the new DLC is on me, my treat, 100% free for anyone and everyone who wants to throw my words in my face. And I'd be absolutely delighted for that to happen, but it's not going to. THAT, ultimately, is the point I'm trying to make. All of your nitpicking on my numbers isn't going to change the fact that TB:RB has a total of 73 songs available, and that number will never change.
  • gdBOOMgdBOOM Unsigned
    edited January 2012
    GNFfhqwhgads;4585766 said:
    Plus, drums aren't even the biggest instrument crowd.
    That has nothing to do with the point I was attempting to make. I was merely using my OWN experience to relate a more general truth to the world. In no way was I attempting to imply that the drums by themselves tell the whole story (even if they do, lol)!
  • SwordofWhedonSwordofWhedon Opening Act
    edited January 2012
    But they wouldn't be included under the heavy restrictions that the Beatles masters would, nor, given the large number of McCartney tracks already available, be restricted to the Beatles game
  • gdBOOMgdBOOM Unsigned
    edited January 2012
    DemonUnicorns;4585785 said:
    I'd like to point out that, while I disagree with the OP and agree with all the replies, actually what I was going to say would be quite obvious.

    Any Beatles DLC would sell better if it were compatible with Rock Band 3 - duh. Infact, that is what has kept me from buying any Beatles DLC, because I don't normally play the game because I'm lazy and hate switching discs. Do want me some more Beatles, though.
    Okay, now, maybe THAT'S the REAL problem. YOU don't understand that this is an enclosed, self-contained game and it will NEVER have RB3 compatibility. Your "laziness" speaks for countless others who didn't purchase DLC, and whatever you say your reason is, the truth is you're just not that into it, so you don't really care whether any new content comes out or not. It's NEVER going to come out for RB3. Do you REALLY care? No, obviously you don't care one way or the other.

    See, I'm sure you play OTHER games, right? Halo, maybe? Or even Guitar Hero? ANYTHING other than RB3 and maybe an occasional session of TB:RB? Because you have to change discs, right? If RB3 is the ONLY game you play, then your point would be well-taken, but if you play any other game, you change the disc. I actually have a lot of other games, but I never play them. I have TB:RB on 75% of the time, RB3 the other 25%. I wish I didn't have to get up to eat dinner, but I'm not going to stop eating due to my addiction to these two games. I'm going to get up and go eat. Hmm... I don't think I'm making my point very well. Sorry. My hands are starting to cramp and I'm getting hungry... and want to get back to playing 2112!
  • gdBOOMgdBOOM Unsigned
    edited January 2012
    SwordofWhedon;4586338 said:
    There's a huge difference in expense for doing Beatles DLC

    1- All Beatles has to be in Beatles: Rock Band contractually
    2- That requires the "experience" of custom animations to be retained
    3- In order to do a beatles track, they have to fly over and put up programmers and engineers, because they can only work with the master stems at Abby Road (which also means very expensive studio time )

    So a Beatles DLC requires probably 5-10x the average expense of a normal DLC track
    So, what you're saying is that it's prohibitively expensive? My point is that the numbers don't add up. Really, we're both saying the same thing, though.
    SwordofWhedon;4586338 said:
    That being said, McCartney covers a lot of the missing tunes, like Hey Jude in his shows, and those CAN appear in RB3. So that's a much more realistic goal.
    BRILLIANT!!! I LOVE this idea! I nominate you for best idea of the year, even though it's only day 2 of the year, because I don't know who could top it. That's awesome! That would be really cool if he'd really do that! Seriously, kudos on thinking outside the box!
  • gdBOOMgdBOOM Unsigned
    edited January 2012
    GNFfhqwhgads;4586605 said:
    No, they can't. Covers have to be cleared with Apple Corp.
    Man, you're just a complete downer! What's the matter with you? All this time, I for some reason thought you were one of the mods on this board, but I just read yesterday that you're NOT. You really DO sound official, though. But how stupid is that, to act like you're in charge when you're not? Like Gary Busey on the first season of Celebrity Rehab, it's sad to see, really. So here's what I'm saying about GNF this week: "Seriously GNF, do you really think Sir Paul would have ANY problems clearing covers with Apple?"
  • SwordofWhedonSwordofWhedon Opening Act
    edited January 2012
    I think what some people are missing is that the entire reason why RB won over Guitar Hero is that they didn't crank out something like those Van Halen/Metallica games, but that they did something amazing with it that honored the work. That's why they can't appear outside the Beatles game, because that's how the contract reads, and is unlikely to be rewritten. Rock Band needs the Beatles, not the other way round, and given that the game barely broke even, there's not a lot of incentive for them to change it.
  • SheSaidSheSaidSheSaidSheSaid Washed Up
    edited January 2012
    This (whole thread) is downright surreal...
    gdBOOM;4586922 said:
    "Seriously GNF, do you really think Sir Paul would have ANY problems clearing covers with Apple?"

    No...Apple would have the same qualms they do now releasing the covers.
  • SwordofWhedonSwordofWhedon Opening Act
    edited January 2012
    Considering they are on his DVDs, considering that Paul has performed Hey Jude countless times, and considering they don't stop anyone else from doing covers, which given that it's Paul, they're not....
  • SirDavidTLynchSirDavidTLynch Headliner
    edited January 2012
    I think the bigger problem is that most people would view the live versions as cheap replacements that would discourage a return to The Beatles even more. It wouldn't help for any of the songs that were never performed live (such as almost all of John's songs).
  • SheSaidSheSaidSheSaidSheSaid Washed Up
    edited January 2012
    SwordofWhedon;4587078 said:
    Considering they are on his DVDs, considering that Paul has performed Hey Jude countless times, and considering they don't stop anyone else from doing covers, which given that it's Paul, they're not....

    So releasing a song on a DVD is exactly the same thing as releasing it to a video game. Gee, I never knew that.
  • MegaIronDragonDethMegaIronDragonDeth Post Ratio > 3 a Day
    edited January 2012
    I'm not sure but if the OP is only looking at the drum leaderboard (I can't remember if it was mentioned that the OP was looking at other leaderboards). Then that won't show you everyone that played the song. I can't remember if there're band leaderboards. But if there are. Then try those out and see how many people have played a song. Then, because it shows everyone who played it on all instruments. You can see how many people played the song. I'm not sure if they have something similar to RB3's where it tells you how many people are in the top 1%. But if it tells you then just multiply that number by 100 and you have roughly a total of everyone who played the song.
  • SCheezer1216SCheezer1216 Unsigned
    edited January 2012
    gdBOOM;4586861 said:
    They won't say it, so I will: There will never be another DLC title made available for TB:RB. That's reality, my friends. So sure am I of this statement, that IF I'm EVER proven wrong, the new DLC is on me, my treat, 100% free for anyone and everyone who wants to throw my words in my face. And I'd be absolutely delighted for that to happen, but it's not going to.
    What I wouldn't give for HMXHenry to storm into the forums one day and announce new DLC just to prove you wrong. *sigh*
  • SwordofWhedonSwordofWhedon Opening Act
    edited January 2012
    SheSaidSheSaid;4587095 said:
    So releasing a song on a DVD is exactly the same thing as releasing it to a video game. Gee, I never knew that.
    It's not exactly the same thing, but it's very close. Have you ever licensed songs? Because I have. You have to secure reproduction and mechanical rights, you have to pay royalties to the composers and lyricists, and sometimes (as with the Beatles catalog) the rights are split up all over the place can make securing those interesting, but McCartney would still need to do that to include the tunes on his DVDs or live albums. I can cover whatever song I want, as long as I pay the correct rights holders like ASCAP or BMI, it's only when you use the original recordings that all those extra bits come in

    So as someone who has licensed songs for RBN from major labels, and has done the rights work on several cover albums, yes, I can tell you that Paul McCartney has no trouble providing Beatles songs to RB if he so chooses, they just have to be new recordings (a dodge that several bands like 3rd Eye Blind have used to get their songs on RBN).

    In fact a friend of mine has a cover of Across the Universe that just came out. No problems with doing a cover.
  • GNFfhqwhgadsGNFfhqwhgads 99% Washed Up
    edited January 2012
    SwordofWhedon;4587435 said:
    It's not exactly the same thing, but it's very close.
    Not when it's The Beatles, no. You seem determined to say Paul McCartney can release covers in Rock Band, but he can't. For Rock Band, rights have to be cleared with the original song-writer. Since Apple Corp doesn't want The Beatles being played by non-Beatles avatars, why do you possibly think covers would be ANY different?
  • SwordofWhedonSwordofWhedon Opening Act
    edited January 2012
    GNFfhqwhgads;4587467 said:
    Not when it's The Beatles, no. You seem determined to say Paul McCartney can release covers in Rock Band, but he can't. For Rock Band, rights have to be cleared with the original song-writer. Since Apple Corp doesn't want The Beatles being played by non-Beatles avatars, why do you possibly think covers would be ANY different?
    Well, now you're moving the goalposts. I thought this was about covers?

    They don't want the original recordings coming out of avatar mouths. That's the difference. You're failing to separate the band and the artist and the song. They especially do not want Beatles avatars kicking Run DMC like the Kurt Cobain fiasco
  • gdBOOMgdBOOM Unsigned
    edited January 2012
    SwordofWhedon;4586952 said:
    I think what some people are missing is that the entire reason why RB won over Guitar Hero is that they didn't crank out something like those Van Halen/Metallica games, but that they did something amazing with it that honored the work. That's why they can't appear outside the Beatles game, because that's how the contract reads, and is unlikely to be rewritten. Rock Band needs the Beatles, not the other way round, and given that the game barely broke even, there's not a lot of incentive for them to change it.
    I agree with you on all counts here. I've got every RB title that's been released for X-BOX, but I only bought my X-Box AFTER I'd pre-ordered TB:RB. I doubt I would have been drawn back into gaming at all if this title hadn't been made. I've also imported all the other titles into RB3, and I'm actually glad that the Beatles game is set apart from the rest. One of the main differences is that every song in RB3 is set on a stage in front of an audience, while a lot of the Beatles songs are set in the studio and become dreamscapes. The Beatles world is unique in the franchise, and I DO think it needs to stay isolated. It's just a bummer that events conspired to put the game's future in limbo so soon after release. But, as you say, "the game barely broke even, there's not a lot of incentive for them to change it."

    Because the numbers aren't there.
  • gdBOOMgdBOOM Unsigned
    edited January 2012
    SCheezer1216;4587394 said:
    What I wouldn't give for HMXHenry to storm into the forums one day and announce new DLC just to prove you wrong. *sigh*
    And I feel exactly the same way. PLEASE, HMXHenry, PLEASE?!?!!! *sigh*
  • gdBOOMgdBOOM Unsigned
    edited January 2012
    lvmathemagician;4586749 said:
    WHy didn't you answer the question? I smell troll.
    Who's trolling who? I've got better things to do than provoke people. I'm defending my statement, not trolling someone else's. You obviously don't understand my response, so I'll explain it to you: I wasn't asked the question, YOU guys were. So, I asked if it was rhetorical. Rhetorical means that an answer isn't REALLY being asked for, and an effective device for posing a rhetorical question is directing it to everyone except the person you would be asking if it wasn't rhetorical. I haven't yet gotten a reply to that question, which I not only posed to GNF personally, but with a brilliant mixture of wit and sarcasm, I also opened MY question up to everyone else... although only rhetorically. See, you guys can't answer for HIM, anymore than you can answer for ME. That's why my question is rhetorical to everyone except GNF, just as I assume his was.

    And anyhow, I believe I DID answer the question in responding to OTHER posts. So watch who you accuse of trolling. I started this thread, thus, I cannot be the troll here.
  • GNFfhqwhgadsGNFfhqwhgads 99% Washed Up
    edited January 2012
    SwordofWhedon;4587624 said:
    Well, now you're moving the goalposts. I thought this was about covers?
    No, why would it be? I cited covers, saying they still had to be cleared with the original rightsholders, so it's not a magic loophole.
    They don't want the original recordings coming out of avatar mouths. That's the difference. You're failing to separate the band and the artist and the song. They especially do not want Beatles avatars kicking Run DMC like the Kurt Cobain fiasco
    Fine. If you believe that, then this should be an easy question to answer.

    Why hasn't it been done?
  • gdBOOMgdBOOM Unsigned
    edited January 2012
    SirDavidTLynch;4587085 said:
    I think the bigger problem is that most people would view the live versions as cheap replacements that would discourage a return to The Beatles even more. It wouldn't help for any of the songs that were never performed live (such as almost all of John's songs).
    With all due respect, I'm trying to tell you the truth: This game is all it's ever going to be. And for the record, I'm one of those people who prefers original studio recordings. I HATE the Tom Petty live versions I've downloaded for RB3. I really don't like the live Band On The Run either, but at least with that one they made the studio version available as well. So, yeah, live McCartney versions of Beatles songs IN RB3 absolutely WOULD be cheap replacements. Thus, they would probably make me YEARN for a return to TB:RB and more TRUE Beatles DLC, but I already know that's a pipe dream. I'm just saying I would buy McCartney Beatles covers for RB3 should they ever be offered... it was a good idea, and I like it!
  • SheSaidSheSaidSheSaidSheSaid Washed Up
    edited January 2012
    GNFfhqwhgads;4587906 said:
    Fine. If you believe that, then this should be an easy question to answer.

    Why hasn't it been done?

    Oh wait, I think I got this one - Because THE NUMBERS AREN'T THERE!!!

    This is too surreal to even follow. Best of luck, GNF.
    gdBOOM;4587946 said:
    With all due respect, I'm trying to tell you the truth: This game is all it's ever going to be.

    I don't think anyone has disputed that. It's just your notion of the DLC having poor sales when it has sold better than ANY DLC for the main platform.
  • gdBOOMgdBOOM Unsigned
    edited January 2012
    MegaIronDragonDeth;4587186 said:
    I'm not sure but if the OP is only looking at the drum leaderboard (I can't remember if it was mentioned that the OP was looking at other leaderboards). Then that won't show you everyone that played the song. I can't remember if there're band leaderboards. But if there are. Then try those out and see how many people have played a song. Then, because it shows everyone who played it on all instruments. You can see how many people played the song. I'm not sure if they have something similar to RB3's where it tells you how many people are in the top 1%. But if it tells you then just multiply that number by 100 and you have roughly a total of everyone who played the song.
    What? You mean there's OTHER INSTRUMENTS? A-a-and BANDS, TOO? Wow, my bad. I just did not know that. ;) lol (jk) [Humor, ar-ar-ar!] Yes, I'm looking at all the leaderboards. The one thing you've overlooked, though, is that a single person can be in MANY bands, ALL of them appearing on the band leaderboard. If you get a high enough score on a song playing solo, you will appear on the band leaderboard as a 1-man band. So, you really CAN'T use band stats to get any useful number. You have to look at the solo players.
  • GNFfhqwhgadsGNFfhqwhgads 99% Washed Up
    edited January 2012
    You can't look at ANY leaderboard to get useful numbers, it only displays the highest 100,000 scores, and The Beatles: Rock Band sold five times that in its first month alone.

    And AGAIN, we've been told that The Beatles are the highest-selling DLC artist in all of Rock Band. You can keep saying only 130 people have optimal FC'd a song on Expert drums, but it doesn't matter, because you're still wrong.
  • SirDavidTLynchSirDavidTLynch Headliner
    edited January 2012
    There seems to be a lot of misinformation flying around. Where was it said that the contracts specifically forbade an export? Haven't Harmonix staff expressed interest in an export (even if it's mostly to say that it's not happening any time soon)? How much do Beatles songs cost in relation to normal Rock Band songs? How do the sales of normal Rock Band DLC stack up using the infallible sales tracking method of the number of people who have gotten the highest score possible on Expert drums? Why do people keep arguing against Beatles avatars performing other peoples' songs when nobody is suggesting that? If a compulsory license is all that's needed to release a cover song in the game, why aren't covers allowed in RBN, and why couldn't they get bands like The Beatles and Led Zeppelin for the old Guitar Hero games?
  • gdBOOMgdBOOM Unsigned
    edited January 2012
    SheSaidSheSaid;4587947 said:
    Oh wait, I think I got this one - Because THE NUMBERS AREN'T THERE!!!

    This is too surreal to even follow. Best of luck, GNF.



    I don't think anyone has disputed that. It's just your notion of the DLC having poor sales when it has sold better than ANY DLC for the main platform.
    Okay, first off, I don't see any "multi-quote" button anywhere. I'm not going to bother manually breaking up your message this time, either. But you really aren't getting what I'm saying at all. And what do you find surreal about this thread, anyhow?

    Om..... Whew... I have no idea what kind of numbers McCartney Beatle covers in RB3 would do. But, you did just prove my point that nobody else can answer for me. When I said the numbers aren't there, I'm only talking about new DLC for TB:RB, NOT covers in RB3. And let me make it clear that there's no way McCartney doing Beatles covers would be acceptable DLC for TB:RB, but only for RB3. Or, I don't know, it might actually be cool if it only worked with LEGO RB! THAT was a fun title to play!

    I never said that the DLC had POOR sales, ever! What I said was, the numbers aren't there to make NEW DLC (for TB:RB) profitable. It wouldn't come close to breaking even. They would lose their shirts. But since you seem intent on proving me wrong, why don't you tell me what those sales numbers actually are on the "best-selling DLC in RB history"?
  • GNFfhqwhgadsGNFfhqwhgads 99% Washed Up
    edited January 2012
    So wait. You say the DLC hasn't sold badly, the numbers just aren't good enough for a profit.


    Please, if you're asking for sales numbers, show us licensing fees to back up your 'won't make a profit', along with your market research to roughly determine the amount of people who would buy it.
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