THE NUMBERS AREN'T THERE, i.e., Here's why there won't be any more Beatles DLC:

gdBOOMgdBOOM Unsigned
Okay, first of all, I don't come to the forums very often. When I do, it's usually because I'm looking for something specific. But, I play this game for hours on end nearly every day. I've got around 1,250 songs on RB3, but I play TB:RB way more than RB3. I'm excited about the new 2112 DLC, but I still love this Beatles game. Like so many others, I've been hoping that we'd eventually get some new Beatles DLC, but as my rankings improve on each song, it's becoming apparent to me that the numbers aren't there to sustain any new content.

I'm currently ranked 172 in the solo Drum Career leaderboards on X-Box, with a score of 5,010,000. I've got #1 rankings on 18 songs right now, and this is where it becomes painfully clear how few of us there actually are. For example, I recently became the 139th person to achieve the #1 ranking on I Am The Walrus. Now, really, that song is part of the game disc, and based on difficulty it seems to me that number is way low. In contrast, I long ago became the 2,019th person to achieve #1 on Michelle, which WAS DLC. Sure, it's an easier song, but SO easy that this number should be WAY higher, if there were that many people who bought it. A month or two ago, I became the 21st person to hit #1 on Lovely Rita. These kinds of numbers make me understand why Viacom was so disappointed that they wanted out! And these numbers tell me that Harmonix is not lying when they say they don't see any profit potential in future Beatles DLC. Bummer!!!

Comments

  • SirDavidTLynchSirDavidTLynch Headliner
    edited January 2012
    If The Beatles DLC flopped, so did the entire Rock Band catalog.
  • GNFfhqwhgadsGNFfhqwhgads 99% Washed Up
    edited January 2012
    Why is he using people who get FCs on Expert as an example of a lack of an audience? I don't see the connection.
  • SheSaidSheSaidSheSaidSheSaid Washed Up
    edited January 2012
    GNFfhqwhgads;4585733 said:
    Why is he using people who get FCs on Expert as an example of a lack of an audience? I don't see the connection.

    Yup, that's the classic "everybody must play on expert~!" fallacy. I didn't bother to bring up the fact that the overwhelming majority of people who play Rock Band play on Medium, and in an arguably even more "casual gamer" friendly title like TB:RB, drum #1's (expert FC's with the optimal path) are even more meaningless.
  • GNFfhqwhgadsGNFfhqwhgads 99% Washed Up
    edited January 2012
    Plus, drums aren't even the biggest instrument crowd.
  • DemonUnicornsDemonUnicorns Normally Dumb
    edited January 2012
    I'd like to point out that, while I disagree with the OP and agree with all the replies, actually what I was going to say would be quite obvious.

    Any Beatles DLC would sell better if it were compatible with Rock Band 3 - duh. Infact, that is what has kept me from buying any Beatles DLC, because I don't normally play the game because I'm lazy and hate switching discs. Do want me some more Beatles, though.
  • nascarfan19nascarfan19 Headliner
    edited January 2012
    GNFfhqwhgads;4585733 said:
    Why is he using people who get FCs on Expert as an example of a lack of an audience? I don't see the connection.

    Exactly. There could be 2 people with an FC and 20,000 with 99%. You can't expect everyone to be amazing.
  • SwordofWhedonSwordofWhedon Opening Act
    edited January 2012
    There's a huge difference in expense for doing Beatles DLC

    1- All Beatles has to be in Beatles: Rock Band contractually
    2- That requires the "experience" of custom animations to be retained
    3- In order to do a beatles track, they have to fly over and put up programmers and engineers, because they can only work with the master stems at Abby Road (which also means very expensive studio time )

    So a Beatles DLC requires probably 5-10x the average expense of a normal DLC track

    That being said, McCartney covers a lot of the missing tunes, like Hey Jude in his shows, and those CAN appear in RB3. So that's a much more realistic goal.
  • GNFfhqwhgadsGNFfhqwhgads 99% Washed Up
    edited January 2012
    SwordofWhedon;4586338 said:
    That being said, McCartney covers a lot of the missing tunes, like Hey Jude in his shows, and those CAN appear in RB3. So that's a much more realistic goal.
    No, they can't. Covers have to be cleared with Apple Corp.
  • gdBOOMgdBOOM Unsigned
    edited January 2012
    SheSaidSheSaid;4585583 said:
    Um...except for the scores you posted, pretty much everything about that post was wrong. In particular



    Link? Because I'm pretty sure the exact opposite was said, that HMX would love to do more Beatles DLC, but it's not something they can just do at the drop of a hat.
    Okay, your point is well taken. However, read between the lines:
    SheSaidSheSaid;4585583 said:
    There are a myriad of legal and technical concerns, not the least of which is releasing DLC for a 4-instrument game a year-plus after only Pro-enabled DLC has come out. And releasing DLC for a two-going on-three-year old title. And....a bunch of other stuff.
    Exactly the point I'm trying to make, but apparently I failed in my attempt. There's not going to be any more Beatles DLC. It's too expensive, even though Harmonix is really into the Beatles. The cost is too great. The numbers aren't there to justify the expense.
    SheSaidSheSaid;4585583 said:
    The Beatles are the highest selling DLC band in HMX history, and it's not even close. Sales don't have nothing to do with it, and maybe Apple Records feels that the sales are below their requirements (but that again would seem to fall under "other considerations"), but that's not the first, second, or twentieth reason. The sales have been good.
    It's my understanding, and I may be wrong about this, by God, and if so, my bad... but I heard last year, around the time that the end of GH was announced, that the RB franchise had not yet (at that time) made a profit, and this included TB:RB. Now, this may no longer be true for RB3, but it's clear to me that since a full two years have passed since the last DLC was released for this game, and no announcements of any new DLC on the way have been made, that this is essentially a dead, unsupported game that still has an audience of die-hard fans, but the numbers are shrinking. BTW, how would I go about quoting from more than one message in the same reply?
  • gdBOOMgdBOOM Unsigned
    edited January 2012
    SirDavidTLynch;4585585 said:
    If The Beatles DLC flopped, so did the entire Rock Band catalog.

    Now, I never said it flopped. All I said is that the numbers aren't there to support the cost of any MORE DLC. The initial 3 albums were obviously part of the original deal, thus I would bet that their costs were figured in to the original game development expenses. And obviously, no deal has been made for any further music. And thus, we can say with complete confidence that we've gotten all we're going to get for THIS game!
  • gdBOOMgdBOOM Unsigned
    edited January 2012
    GNFfhqwhgads;4585733 said:
    Why is he using people who get FCs on Expert as an example of a lack of an audience? I don't see the connection.
    Well, why are you asking THEM? Ask ME, I'm the only one who can answer for myself. Unless, of course, the question was rhetorical? Hey, was his question rhetorical?
  • gdBOOMgdBOOM Unsigned
    edited January 2012
    SheSaidSheSaid;4585740 said:
    Yup, that's the classic "everybody must play on expert~!" fallacy. I didn't bother to bring up the fact that the overwhelming majority of people who play Rock Band play on Medium...
    Is this true? I mean, I play guitar and bass on medium, but I've been trying to conquer hard, because eventually I'd like to get every achievement from this game. Don't get me started on achievements, though, because that's a whole other ball of wax!
    SheSaidSheSaid;4585740 said:
    ...and in an arguably even more "casual gamer" friendly title like TB:RB, drum #1's (expert FC's with the optimal path) are even more meaningless.
    Well, now that's just hurtful! Everybody tries to dis Ringo and say he was so simple, and in fact some of the tracks weren't that hard to master. And I'll admit that the optimal path is sometimes hard to find, so that in itself keeps a lot of people from achieving #1 ranks. In fact, I haven't found it yet for Yellow Submarine or A Hard Day's Night, two of the easiest songs to get 100% on but seemingly impossible to get to #1 on. Now, on the former, I'm unable to get any closer than 1000 points from #1, and I'm ranked 366. Initially, it was 364, but two more people have managed to break through that barrier within the last 9 months, bringing the total number of people who have managed to find a better path than me to 365. I don't even know how many of us there are at 365, but it's probably not a whole lot, as the track that got me to this spot took a lot of trial and error to find, more than the casual gamer is going to try, anyhow. So, yeah, that's definitely going to keep the number of people at #1 low, for those songs. But that's what's so weird about this game: It's not the drumming in itself but the strategy of when to go into OD that gets you to the top. And then again, sometimes it IS the drumming. Ringo's NOT all that easy on a lot of these songs, and I assure you that my #1 positions are NOT meaningless, any more than any other gamer score from any games whatsoever. Even LESS meaningless than those, actually, because I can apply these motions to a real drumset, and actually play these songs for real. And when I nail a vocal harmony, that's something I'm really doing. Not the same thing can be said for bass or guitar, nor in fact for many other games at all. So, yeah, not meaningless at all!
  • lvmathemagicianlvmathemagician Road Warrior
    edited January 2012
    gdBOOM;4586731 said:
    Well, why are you asking THEM? Ask ME, I'm the only one who can answer for myself. Unless, of course, the question was rhetorical? Hey, was his question rhetorical?

    WHy didn't you answer the question? I smell troll.
  • SheSaidSheSaidSheSaidSheSaid Washed Up
    edited January 2012
    Multi-quote button. Please use it.
  • gdBOOMgdBOOM Unsigned
    edited January 2012
    nascarfan19;4585830 said:
    Exactly. There could be 2 people with an FC and 20,000 with 99%. You can't expect everyone to be amazing.
    I'm not expecting everyone to be amazing. Is that what it sounds like? But some of these songs, well, I'm just blown away by how few people there are at or even near the top. That's another thing, I'm NOT using FCs to make my point, but I AM using the leaderboards overall. And there ARE players on medium and hard listed on a lot of the leaderboards. Here's what I'm saying: using the leaderboards, I can get a rough estimate of how many people play this game on X-Box. I figure it's about the same for Playstation, and I've heard that Wii has MAYBE 10% of the TOTAL audience, so about 5% of the number on X-Box, I think? See, here's the thing... I thought the number was in the MILLIONS, but it's NOT! It's only in the Hundred-Thousands, and of those, probably only 10% are currently active and online. Now, you gave me an example number of 20,002. Perhaps fortunately, the number IS quite larger than that, but still substantially less than I had assumed, and in the end, not enough to sustain our thirst for more. There's just not enough of US (you guys and me, all of us who want nothing more than MORE!), and even though Harmonix keeps making statements that seem hopeful on the surface, it's really a false hope they're sustaining, which at this stage seems cruel to me. They won't say it, so I will: There will never be another DLC title made available for TB:RB. That's reality, my friends. So sure am I of this statement, that IF I'm EVER proven wrong, the new DLC is on me, my treat, 100% free for anyone and everyone who wants to throw my words in my face. And I'd be absolutely delighted for that to happen, but it's not going to. THAT, ultimately, is the point I'm trying to make. All of your nitpicking on my numbers isn't going to change the fact that TB:RB has a total of 73 songs available, and that number will never change.
  • gdBOOMgdBOOM Unsigned
    edited January 2012
    GNFfhqwhgads;4585766 said:
    Plus, drums aren't even the biggest instrument crowd.
    That has nothing to do with the point I was attempting to make. I was merely using my OWN experience to relate a more general truth to the world. In no way was I attempting to imply that the drums by themselves tell the whole story (even if they do, lol)!
  • SwordofWhedonSwordofWhedon Opening Act
    edited January 2012
    But they wouldn't be included under the heavy restrictions that the Beatles masters would, nor, given the large number of McCartney tracks already available, be restricted to the Beatles game
  • gdBOOMgdBOOM Unsigned
    edited January 2012
    DemonUnicorns;4585785 said:
    I'd like to point out that, while I disagree with the OP and agree with all the replies, actually what I was going to say would be quite obvious.

    Any Beatles DLC would sell better if it were compatible with Rock Band 3 - duh. Infact, that is what has kept me from buying any Beatles DLC, because I don't normally play the game because I'm lazy and hate switching discs. Do want me some more Beatles, though.
    Okay, now, maybe THAT'S the REAL problem. YOU don't understand that this is an enclosed, self-contained game and it will NEVER have RB3 compatibility. Your "laziness" speaks for countless others who didn't purchase DLC, and whatever you say your reason is, the truth is you're just not that into it, so you don't really care whether any new content comes out or not. It's NEVER going to come out for RB3. Do you REALLY care? No, obviously you don't care one way or the other.

    See, I'm sure you play OTHER games, right? Halo, maybe? Or even Guitar Hero? ANYTHING other than RB3 and maybe an occasional session of TB:RB? Because you have to change discs, right? If RB3 is the ONLY game you play, then your point would be well-taken, but if you play any other game, you change the disc. I actually have a lot of other games, but I never play them. I have TB:RB on 75% of the time, RB3 the other 25%. I wish I didn't have to get up to eat dinner, but I'm not going to stop eating due to my addiction to these two games. I'm going to get up and go eat. Hmm... I don't think I'm making my point very well. Sorry. My hands are starting to cramp and I'm getting hungry... and want to get back to playing 2112!
  • gdBOOMgdBOOM Unsigned
    edited January 2012
    SwordofWhedon;4586338 said:
    There's a huge difference in expense for doing Beatles DLC

    1- All Beatles has to be in Beatles: Rock Band contractually
    2- That requires the "experience" of custom animations to be retained
    3- In order to do a beatles track, they have to fly over and put up programmers and engineers, because they can only work with the master stems at Abby Road (which also means very expensive studio time )

    So a Beatles DLC requires probably 5-10x the average expense of a normal DLC track
    So, what you're saying is that it's prohibitively expensive? My point is that the numbers don't add up. Really, we're both saying the same thing, though.
    SwordofWhedon;4586338 said:
    That being said, McCartney covers a lot of the missing tunes, like Hey Jude in his shows, and those CAN appear in RB3. So that's a much more realistic goal.
    BRILLIANT!!! I LOVE this idea! I nominate you for best idea of the year, even though it's only day 2 of the year, because I don't know who could top it. That's awesome! That would be really cool if he'd really do that! Seriously, kudos on thinking outside the box!
  • gdBOOMgdBOOM Unsigned
    edited January 2012
    GNFfhqwhgads;4586605 said:
    No, they can't. Covers have to be cleared with Apple Corp.
    Man, you're just a complete downer! What's the matter with you? All this time, I for some reason thought you were one of the mods on this board, but I just read yesterday that you're NOT. You really DO sound official, though. But how stupid is that, to act like you're in charge when you're not? Like Gary Busey on the first season of Celebrity Rehab, it's sad to see, really. So here's what I'm saying about GNF this week: "Seriously GNF, do you really think Sir Paul would have ANY problems clearing covers with Apple?"
  • SwordofWhedonSwordofWhedon Opening Act
    edited January 2012
    I think what some people are missing is that the entire reason why RB won over Guitar Hero is that they didn't crank out something like those Van Halen/Metallica games, but that they did something amazing with it that honored the work. That's why they can't appear outside the Beatles game, because that's how the contract reads, and is unlikely to be rewritten. Rock Band needs the Beatles, not the other way round, and given that the game barely broke even, there's not a lot of incentive for them to change it.
  • SheSaidSheSaidSheSaidSheSaid Washed Up
    edited January 2012
    This (whole thread) is downright surreal...
    gdBOOM;4586922 said:
    "Seriously GNF, do you really think Sir Paul would have ANY problems clearing covers with Apple?"

    No...Apple would have the same qualms they do now releasing the covers.
  • SwordofWhedonSwordofWhedon Opening Act
    edited January 2012
    Considering they are on his DVDs, considering that Paul has performed Hey Jude countless times, and considering they don't stop anyone else from doing covers, which given that it's Paul, they're not....
  • SirDavidTLynchSirDavidTLynch Headliner
    edited January 2012
    I think the bigger problem is that most people would view the live versions as cheap replacements that would discourage a return to The Beatles even more. It wouldn't help for any of the songs that were never performed live (such as almost all of John's songs).
  • SheSaidSheSaidSheSaidSheSaid Washed Up
    edited January 2012
    SwordofWhedon;4587078 said:
    Considering they are on his DVDs, considering that Paul has performed Hey Jude countless times, and considering they don't stop anyone else from doing covers, which given that it's Paul, they're not....

    So releasing a song on a DVD is exactly the same thing as releasing it to a video game. Gee, I never knew that.
  • MegaIronDragonDethMegaIronDragonDeth Post Ratio > 3 a Day
    edited January 2012
    I'm not sure but if the OP is only looking at the drum leaderboard (I can't remember if it was mentioned that the OP was looking at other leaderboards). Then that won't show you everyone that played the song. I can't remember if there're band leaderboards. But if there are. Then try those out and see how many people have played a song. Then, because it shows everyone who played it on all instruments. You can see how many people played the song. I'm not sure if they have something similar to RB3's where it tells you how many people are in the top 1%. But if it tells you then just multiply that number by 100 and you have roughly a total of everyone who played the song.
  • SCheezer1216SCheezer1216 Unsigned
    edited January 2012
    gdBOOM;4586861 said:
    They won't say it, so I will: There will never be another DLC title made available for TB:RB. That's reality, my friends. So sure am I of this statement, that IF I'm EVER proven wrong, the new DLC is on me, my treat, 100% free for anyone and everyone who wants to throw my words in my face. And I'd be absolutely delighted for that to happen, but it's not going to.
    What I wouldn't give for HMXHenry to storm into the forums one day and announce new DLC just to prove you wrong. *sigh*
  • SwordofWhedonSwordofWhedon Opening Act
    edited January 2012
    SheSaidSheSaid;4587095 said:
    So releasing a song on a DVD is exactly the same thing as releasing it to a video game. Gee, I never knew that.
    It's not exactly the same thing, but it's very close. Have you ever licensed songs? Because I have. You have to secure reproduction and mechanical rights, you have to pay royalties to the composers and lyricists, and sometimes (as with the Beatles catalog) the rights are split up all over the place can make securing those interesting, but McCartney would still need to do that to include the tunes on his DVDs or live albums. I can cover whatever song I want, as long as I pay the correct rights holders like ASCAP or BMI, it's only when you use the original recordings that all those extra bits come in

    So as someone who has licensed songs for RBN from major labels, and has done the rights work on several cover albums, yes, I can tell you that Paul McCartney has no trouble providing Beatles songs to RB if he so chooses, they just have to be new recordings (a dodge that several bands like 3rd Eye Blind have used to get their songs on RBN).

    In fact a friend of mine has a cover of Across the Universe that just came out. No problems with doing a cover.
  • GNFfhqwhgadsGNFfhqwhgads 99% Washed Up
    edited January 2012
    SwordofWhedon;4587435 said:
    It's not exactly the same thing, but it's very close.
    Not when it's The Beatles, no. You seem determined to say Paul McCartney can release covers in Rock Band, but he can't. For Rock Band, rights have to be cleared with the original song-writer. Since Apple Corp doesn't want The Beatles being played by non-Beatles avatars, why do you possibly think covers would be ANY different?
  • SwordofWhedonSwordofWhedon Opening Act
    edited January 2012
    GNFfhqwhgads;4587467 said:
    Not when it's The Beatles, no. You seem determined to say Paul McCartney can release covers in Rock Band, but he can't. For Rock Band, rights have to be cleared with the original song-writer. Since Apple Corp doesn't want The Beatles being played by non-Beatles avatars, why do you possibly think covers would be ANY different?
    Well, now you're moving the goalposts. I thought this was about covers?

    They don't want the original recordings coming out of avatar mouths. That's the difference. You're failing to separate the band and the artist and the song. They especially do not want Beatles avatars kicking Run DMC like the Kurt Cobain fiasco
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