2x Bass Pedal Songs, No Free Upgrade?

malice72malice72 Unsigned
edited February 2012 in The Rock Band Network
Hello, I was just wondering/hoping there was a way to upgrade my songs to 2x bass pedal songs for free? I have many songs that it seems everyday are now coming out with a 2x bass pedal version, do I really have to repurchase for 160msp JUST for double bass even though the rest of the song is exactly the same? That seems a bit much. If we already own the song, it should only cost like 40msp or free to upgrade. Please let me know if there already is a function implemented in the game that allows me to do this, as I may be completely wrong. Thanks! :)

Comments

  • BohemianMattBohemianMatt Headliner
    edited February 2012
    You have to pay twice. Sorry.
  • edited February 2012
    I'm sure most of the authors would gladly let you pay less to get the upgrade but the way the XNA system works it just cant support add-ons for add-ons.
  • machetemonkeymachetemonkey Opening Act
    edited February 2012
    MagicMurderBag7;4638518 said:
    I'm sure most of the authors would gladly let you pay less to get the upgrade but the way the XNA system works it just cant support add-ons for add-ons.


    Basically, this.

    We'd love to allow for free (or discounted) 2x upgrades for existing tracks. Hell, HMX would love that.

    But the way the system works, we can't do that. The best we can do is to release fully separate tracks with 2x bass authored. It's kind of a crappy system, but that's the only way it'll work for now. As for the price? Well, since it's a completely different song, we can't charge 40 MSP or something for it, since then people could buy the entire song (just with the 2x authored) for 40 MSP, skipping the single-pedal version entirely.

    We know it's not an ideal system. Frankly, it's about the least ideal situation imaginable. But it's the only system we can currently implement. The best we as authors can do is to do our best to have single-pedal and 2x-bass versions of songs release as close together as possible, so people can make the choice, rather than buying a song then seeing a 2x version release a week or two later. But even that's hard to do given how the PR process works.
  • malice72malice72 Unsigned
    edited February 2012
    machetemonkey;4638531 said:


    As for the price? Well, since it's a completely different song, we can't charge 40 MSP or something for it, since then people could buy the entire song (just with the 2x authored) for 40 MSP, skipping the single-pedal version entirely.


    But when you purchase a song that has pro guitar, you purchase the song, THEN it allows you to upgrade to pro guitar for 80msp, why can't they do just that, but with double bass?
  • ThatAuthoringGroupThatAuthoringGroup Numero Uno Super **** Fanboy #1
    edited February 2012
    Because XNA, the system that the entire Rock Band Network is based on, doesn't work like official DLC channels.

    It treats each song released as its own new 'game'. That's why when a song needs to be yanked due to errors and replaced with a new version the two songs aren't compatible with each other. As far as XNA knows these two songs are two entirely different things. Even though they are the same song, just with different charts in spots.

    Same holds true for the 2x bass pedal versions. XNA does not recognize that they are the same song, and for that matter there is no way of adding, upgrading, patching, or adjusting any song once it's out in the wilds in regards to Rock Band Network. When the song is released that's what it is. It can never be changed. Only a new version released with the fixes, or double bass, or added keys or harmonies.

    Just the limitations of the XNA structure.
  • malice72malice72 Unsigned
    edited February 2012
    Ya, I realized after I posted. Songs that have pro guitar upgrades, were created like that from the beginning, when the song was originally put up as a dlc. In order to do the 2x bass as an addon, is much tougher since the song is already created and the upgradable content was not originally meant to be there. So, the problem is just me, hah. Guess I just wish that authors could put up their song and their double bass version at the same time, but I know they really want to get their songs out there, so it is difficult. Thank you all for the info and discussing this with me, great forum :)
  • ThatAuthoringGroupThatAuthoringGroup Numero Uno Super **** Fanboy #1
    edited February 2012
    For the record if you see any That Authoring Group song in the store that sounds like it should have double bass, then a double bass version is coming. So that might save you some money :)
  • SirDavidTLynchSirDavidTLynch Headliner
    edited February 2012
    If Rock Band 3 was designed for double bass, there would be no need for upgrades; drawing more lines on the Expert drum track isn't the same amount of work as transcribing authentic guitar and bass charts for four difficulties.
  • ThatAuthoringGroupThatAuthoringGroup Numero Uno Super **** Fanboy #1
    edited February 2012
    I have a feeling (and I'm pulling this out of my ass) that RB4 will come with a 5th 'difficulty' double bass.

    Or an option in the menu to turn double bass off or on that swaps out the regular expert chart for the double bass chart, and vice versa.

    Either way I think the double releases on Rock Band Network for Double bass will be a thing of the past, and official DLC will have double bass integrated somehow.

    Again, total speculation on my part, and don't take the fact that I'm part of an authoring group to lead you to believe that I have any idea what Harmonix are planning for the next Rock Band (whenever it is and whatever it might be called).
  • malice72malice72 Unsigned
    edited February 2012
    I know the song didn't come out on RBN, but, think we'll ever see a This Calling - All That Remains 2x bass? Or is that just always going to stay a dream of mine? ahahah
  • ZemanatorZemanator Rising Star
    edited February 2012
    it will always stay a dream. ANY songs released through official HMX DLC will not be getting the 2x bass treatment. Which sucks as well, but we've (the RBN) released over 125 double bass songs and have a lot more in the works, over different styles and genres, so you have tons to (hopefully) enjoy before a better solution can be implemented
  • dansolodansolo Rising Star
    edited February 2012
    I would buy all the 2x upgrades if I could, on ps3 which is not compatible with RBN
  • Bront20Bront20 The Writing's on the Wall
    edited February 2012
    malice72;4638533 said:
    But when you purchase a song that has pro guitar, you purchase the song, THEN it allows you to upgrade to pro guitar for 80msp, why can't they do just that, but with double bass?

    Pro guitar parts are separate charts for a new instrument. The only difference in a 2X bass pedal is the expert chart has the 2x bass pedal charting, otherwise the song is the same. The game doesn't see 2x as an extra difficulty level or set of charts to select.

    Maybe they'll fix it in RB4 so that can happen (Expert 2X would be an option for drums/pro perhaps), or maybe not
  • HMXLachesisHMXLachesis Harmonix Alum
    edited February 2012
    While building Rock Band 2 (and later, when building Rock Band 3), we didn't see that the demand for 2x bass pedal songs was great enough to justify spending the development time and audio time to support such a system.

    The Rock Band Network authors felt otherwise, and they wanted to support a 2x bass pedal option for their customers. There was a short discussion on the creators.rockband.com forums, and we decided that it was a worthwhile experiment. Because there were no built-in tools to support something like this on RB3, the RBN authors made two versions of each applicable song - one regular, and one exactly identical with a 2x bass pedal chart on Expert Drums and Pro Drums.

    100+ 2x bass pedal songs later, I'm really glad that the RBN authors convinced us to try this experiment! However, the 2x bass pedal system still isn't native to RB3, and this is the only way that 2x bass pedal songs can be released.
  • raynebcraynebc Road Warrior
    edited February 2012
    For a future release, the best double bass system would be to define MIDI notes specifically for just the double bass drum gems for each difficulty. It would then be exceedingly easy to author them or, as a player, toggle them on/off. The second best system would be allowing a drum upgrade to be purchased, and it would just replace the drum track of the regular RBN release.
  • ThatAuthoringGroupThatAuthoringGroup Numero Uno Super **** Fanboy #1
    edited February 2012
    I think the best bet IF it happens in a future RB title would either have it as a 5th 'difficulty' or an on off option like drum lanes. Off you get regular expert, on you get the double bass version of expert.

    I'm not saying they'll be easy features to implement, but it'll be better than filling up the RB library with 2 versions of one song. Specially if the 3000 song limit is still in place for said future title.
  • NoThru22NoThru22 Road Warrior
    edited February 2012
    machetemonkey;4638531 said:
    We know it's not an ideal system. Frankly, it's about the least ideal situation imaginable.
    I think that the least ideal situation would be no support at all.
  • ricecakericecake Road Warrior
    edited February 2012
    IF (and that's a big "if") they do decide to integrate double bass into the next version of Rock Band, I think a neat feature would be if it sees two copies of a song where the only difference is the expert drum chart and the title of the song (one of them would have "2x Bass Pedal" or however it's worded), then it would be smart enough to merge them into a single song and apply the double bass option to them. This is coming from someone who does not play double bass.
  • wesjett08wesjett08 Rising Star
    edited February 2012
    Just to start off ... I now very little about actually programming games so don't take this as one of those "HEY THIS SHOULD TAKE 2 MINUTES TO PROGRAM" kind of posts. I'm just throwing my guess at how it could be done out there. HMX, if you're listening and use my idea ... send me bacon*.


    Since in the RBN charting template there is a blank midi lane under the pro-drums markers, I always assumed they could add a "Double Kick" lane. As an author you would either fully chart the drums and "hide" the added kicks with this lane. Or you would chart as we do now and then just add the extra kicks in this special lane. This extra lane could be toggled on and off in an options menu much like the pro-drums cymbal markers are now if you don't have all the cymbals.

    This is how my problem solving brain figured it would go, sounds easy enough right?



    *Don't actually send me bacon, I'm vegetarian. Chocolate cake will do though ...
  • raynebcraynebc Road Warrior
    edited February 2012
    That's pretty close to how I'd do it, although if there's only one MIDI note allocated, it would be all double bass notes or nothing in lower difficulties (unless they add some system to automatically thin them out based on selected difficulty). In that case the most sensible thing to do would be to only display double bass if the drummer was playing Expert difficulty.
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