Coins - Questioning Their Use...

Hairy_CabbageHairy_Cabbage Unsigned
edited September 2012 in Rock Band Blitz
Thats right, why do coins even exist in this game, a lot of the trailers i saw leading up to the release of this game were talking about how the game will be focused towards gaining points and competitive play. All coins are doing is limiting how many times you can actually play for (what you guys said the game was about several times in different vids) high scores and points.

The ONLY reason I can see the coins being in game for is so you guys can eventually start charging us money for them, in order to allow us to play more high score runs without having to camp a song for coins first, essentially this would make the a "pay to win" style game, which I don't agree with at all.

on a brighter note, im really enjoying the game, although i cant see myself playing it competitively which i had initially bought it for without the removal of coins (or some sort of no power up leaderboards)

Comments

  • edited August 2012
    grimripper82;4861121 said:
    I think the coin system is a marketing ploy, no more, no less.
    I mean, releasing a new game is a marketing ploy. Releasing new DLC for 250 weeks is a marketing. Yes, we want you to buy things and then play them and enjoy them. Surprise?
  • Odin ForceOdin Force Road Warrior
    edited August 2012
    hmxhenry;4861146 said:
    I mean, releasing a new game is a marketing ploy. Releasing new DLC for 250 weeks is a marketing. Yes, we want you to buy things and then play them and enjoy them. Surprise?
    I had a dream that you could trade in 1,000,000 coins to get to make up clues for DLC for a day.
  • Hairy_CabbageHairy_Cabbage Unsigned
    edited August 2012
    hmxhenry;4861145 said:
    you should be able to recoup most of those coins, prevented you from having to "camp" or grind songs.
    so i played a song, spend 750 coins on a load out, earned 250coins for a 5* performance... ye i can see how long im going to get to play without having to "grind" more coins...
    hmxhenry;4861145 said:
    There's also some planned integration of coins and cred with RB World, but we'll have more info on that later.
    let me guess, your going to sell them to us? :)
  • grimripper82grimripper82 Opening Act
    edited August 2012
    hmxhenry;4861146 said:
    I mean, releasing a new game is a marketing ploy. Releasing new DLC for 250 weeks is a marketing. Yes, we want you to buy things and then play them and enjoy them. Surprise?

    Well, yeah. I wasn't demonizing Harmonix in any way for this being a marketing thing. Actually, I kind of admire it to be honest. I honestly hope this will encourage more players to jump on board and get some DLC. People seem really excited about this game, and that's awesome!

    I gotta tell you though Aaron, your little RBB marketing ploy just isn't going to work on me. I won't buy more songs because of it. I buy 'em all every week anyway, so ha!
  • geo2n2geo2n2 Road Warrior
    edited August 2012
    I appreciate HMXHenry's reply, but the coin economy thing just doesn't feel right to me. I'm not trying to be snarky, I just don't care for how it works, so it's probably not a game for me, unfortunately. That's fine, although disappointing. RB has competitive leaderboards, and you can restart as much as you want, but I guess the power-up thing is the difference. Maybe I'm just an old, jaded gamer, but I don't have the time for such an economy system where you lose progress in a sense.
  • FairwoodStudiosFairwoodStudios Road Warrior
    edited August 2012
    geo2n2;4861175 said:
    Maybe I'm just an old, jaded gamer, but I don't have the time for such an economy system where you lose progress in a sense.

    I think the intent is for Cred to be your 'progress', since that's how you unlock powerups in the first place and that doesn't go down.
  • Odin ForceOdin Force Road Warrior
    edited August 2012
    Hairy_Cabbage;4861170 said:
    let me guess, your going to sell them to us? :)
    Henry already said no.
  • Hairy_CabbageHairy_Cabbage Unsigned
    edited August 2012
    FairwoodStudios;4861176 said:
    I think the intent is for Cred to be your 'progress', since that's how you unlock powerups in the first place and that doesn't go down.
    i dont think anyone has a problem with creds, its the coins that dont make sense...
  • geo2n2geo2n2 Road Warrior
    edited August 2012
    FairwoodStudios;4861176 said:
    I think the intent is for Cred to be your 'progress', since that's how you unlock powerups in the first place and that doesn't go down.

    Well I'll see how it works more later I guess. I was day-one to wait for a sale, to buy for the track pack, which I'll probably do later today. If getting these songs for $15 means having a game I'm eventually not into, no big loss. I want the RB DLC to keep coming so I'll consider it an investment in that cause. I'll give the game a fair shot.
  • Meat-PopsicleMeat-Popsicle Road Warrior
    edited August 2012
    All games have rules. The coins are an intentional decision to encourage you to play a certain way (try new songs! try a score challenge!) and discourage you from playing in other ways (grinding the same song over and over, especially by quitting in the middle repeatedly when you don't nail the solo perfectly). I'm very happy with this decision, it makes me feel like I have a legimate shot at a high score without having to do things I don't find fun at all (grinding, do-overs, paying US$ to get a game advantage).

    And yes, Harmonix likes to make money. And I like to give it to them, or to any business that provides me a useful product at a fair price. Especially organizations that I know that I can trust not to pull any funny business to try and trick me / "force" me into paying more that I originally pictured. Thumbs up!

    Though those thumbs are a little sore this morning.
  • grimripper82grimripper82 Opening Act
    edited August 2012
    geo2n2;4861175 said:
    I appreciate HMXHenry's reply, but the coin economy thing just doesn't feel right to me. I'm not trying to be snarky, I just don't care for how it works, so it's probably not a game for me, unfortunately. That's fine, although disappointing. RB has competitive leaderboards, and you can restart as much as you want, but I guess the power-up thing is the difference. Maybe I'm just an old, jaded gamer, but I don't have the time for such an economy system where you lose progress in a sense.

    For the record, if you just complete a bunch of the goals provided by the facebook app, you can really pile up some serious coin really, really fast. Honestly, I'm not even playing Blitz much right now. I'm playing all of the great new tracks in RB3. The cool thing is, you can still complete the goals while playing RB3. Whenever I do go back to Blitz, I'm going to be stacked with coins, and I didn't really have to "grind" to get them.
  • edited August 2012
    Hairy_Cabbage;4861170 said:
    so i played a song, spend 750 coins on a load out, earned 250coins for a 5* performance... ye i can see how long im going to get to play without having to "grind" more coins...
    And if it was the first time you had played that song you would have gotten an additional 250 coins. And if you were playing it in a Score War you would have gotten an additional 250 coins if you lost and another 750 if you won. And if it was part of a goal it would have gone toward earning 2,500 coins. You don't have to grind if you take advantage of the other options available to you. I earned ~10,000 coins in just a few hours and I never played the same song twice.
    Hairy_Cabbage;4861170 said:
    let me guess, your going to sell them to us? :)
    How would we sell you a Facebook app? You seem awfully convinced we're trying to nickel and dime people with something here and I'm not sure why, especially when we didn't charge to export the Blitz soundtrack to your RB library and we didn't charge to make the entire RB library functional in Blitz. We're not out to cheat people.
    grimripper82;4861173 said:
    I gotta tell you though Aaron, your little RBB marketing ploy just isn't going to work on me. I won't buy more songs because of it. I buy 'em all every week anyway, so ha!

    Drats, foiled again!
    geo2n2;4861175 said:
    I appreciate HMXHenry's reply, but the coin economy thing just doesn't feel right to me. I'm not trying to be snarky, I just don't care for how it works, so it's probably not a game for me, unfortunately. That's fine, although disappointing. RB has competitive leaderboards, and you can restart as much as you want, but I guess the power-up thing is the difference. Maybe I'm just an old, jaded gamer, but I don't have the time for such an economy system where you lose progress in a sense.
    That's all totally fair. None of our games will appeal to everyone, that's just the way it is. Some people may not like the game play or the coin economy or the (optional) RB World integration or the leaderboard battles and that's fine. All we can do is try to pack as much value into the game so that people are able to enjoy it either as a standalone title or for its value as RB3 DLC.
  • jeronemitchelljeronemitchell Road Warrior
    edited August 2012
    grimripper82;4861121 said:
    I think the coin system is a marketing ploy, no more, no less. You get double coins for playing new songs. In order to pile up your coins, you always want to be playing more and more different songs and explore your library. Eventually, you'll run out of songs, and buy more so that you get more coins. Same deal with the new goals system. You'll buy more songs to achieve more goals, which might not be possible otherwise. Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining, or calling shenanigans or anything, I just feel like that's what the intent is.

    Okay... for a forum goer I believe I am on the mid-to-low level of DLC available at (including RBB) a hair over 800 songs. It will be a LONG FRIGGIN' TIME before I run out of songs, assuming I never buy another piece of DLC again... and that's pretty unlikely.

    Now, for those people that have seven pieces of DLC, yes, this incentivizes the purchase of new songs. To that I say... "So?"
  • grimripper82grimripper82 Opening Act
    edited August 2012
    Okay, to further prove my point about how easy it is to get coins, I just checked the facebook app. So far, I've played 18 songs on RBB. However, I'm currently sitting at 14,450 coins. There are a few goals that I'm close to finishing, that will net me several thousand more. There's quite a few goals I haven't even started yet. Again, I'm just playing the new tracks in RB3 as I would be following the DLC release day any week of the year. No grinding involved. I've only had to select which goals I wanted to work on at any given time (up to 10 at once), and it's easy money. These goals really aren't making you jump through any hoops. They're actually very easy. If you haven't looked into yet, give it a go.
  • HMXLachesisHMXLachesis Harmonix Alum
    edited August 2012
    hmxhenry;4861146 said:
    i mean, releasing a new game is a marketing ploy. Releasing new dlc for 250 weeks is a marketing. Yes, we want you to buy things and then play them and enjoy them. Surprise?

    What are you doing?!? You're revealing the hidden agenda!
  • Hairy_CabbageHairy_Cabbage Unsigned
    edited August 2012
    hmxhenry;4861195 said:
    And if it was the first time you had played that song you would have gotten an additional 250 coins. And if you were playing it in a Score War you would have gotten an additional 250 coins if you lost and another 750 if you won. And if it was part of a goal it would have gone toward earning 2,500 coins. You don't have to grind if you take advantage of the other options available to you. I earned ~10,000 coins in just a few hours and I never played the same song twice.

    u make it sound like a bad thing to play the songs i enjoy, i dont have a huge library, as i havent really played any of the previous rockband games, but i downloaded a few songs which i like, and i enjoy playing them over and over as opposed to playing songs which dont appeal to me just for a coin boost.
    hmxhenry;4861195 said:
    How would we sell you a Facebook app? You seem awfully convinced we're trying to nickel and dime people with something here and I'm not sure why, especially when we didn't charge to export the Blitz soundtrack to your RB library and we didn't charge to make the entire RB library functional in Blitz. We're not out to cheat people.
    The only reference to money I personally have made in this thread (as far as i can remember) was in my op referring to selling credits (and a post later about the same thing). but the fact is, money has nothing to do with this thread as i intended when i made it, in fact the only reason i even mentioned it was to provide a reason for why i thought u may have added the coins to the game in the first place. the thread was original made to show my PERSONAL dislike for the coin system. from the videos i saw, i was expecting a competitive leaderboard game, but all i really see is an occasional attempt at a good score and then some grinding, combined with the lack of core song overall leaderboards, meaning i have to own like 1K+ songs if i ever wanted to see the top page of the overall leaderboards.

    but dont get me wrong, as for as the game its self is, im really enjoying it, i was only putting forward my concerns about the coins, and all that means is, i wont be playing it as much as i first intended and i wont be buying as much dlc as i first intended, i still enjoy the game, but most likely wont find myself playing much past collecting all the achievements (not inc dlc ones).
  • edited August 2012
    HMXLachesis;4861230 said:
    What are you doing?!? You're revealing the hidden agenda!

    NEWSFLASH: Game Studio Not a Charity, Actually Charges For Content
  • Meat-PopsicleMeat-Popsicle Road Warrior
    edited August 2012
    It's very easy to get coins, at first. It could get tricky once you run out of all of the easy challenges to complete. Sure, they can add more challenges in the future, but I'm guessing you'll never see something like "Complete 1 Funk Song, Solo" ever again, once you complete it the first time.

    Yes, you can always do Score Wars, though I seem to be limited to doing only one at a time [the one that looks like it was suggested by Blitz automatically, with a random PS3 friend that owns Blitz, and with a random song that we both own?]. I don't currently have any Facebook friends that own Blitz and I might never get any - even if I buy it for all 3 of the PS3 RB3 owners that I am friends with, only 1 of them was ever willing to link their game to FB. I don't blame Harmonix for that situation, and I fully understand the real-life choices they had to make. But it makes the game play a little awkward.
  • edited August 2012
    Hairy_Cabbage;4861238 said:
    u make it sound like a bad thing to play the songs i enjoy, i dont have a huge library, as i havent really played any of the previous rockband games, but i downloaded a few songs which i like, and i enjoy playing them over and over as opposed to playing songs which dont appeal to me just for a coin boost.
    I certainly wasn't trying to make it sound like it's a bad thing to play the songs you enjoy. Play whatever you like! I was only trying to illustrate that there are other ways to play the songs you like that will net you more coins.
    Hairy_Cabbage;4861238 said:
    ...from the videos i saw, i was expecting a competitive leaderboard game, but all i really see is an occasional attempt at a good score and then some grinding, combined with the lack of core song overall leaderboards, meaning i have to own like 1K+ songs if i ever wanted to see the top page of the overall leaderboards.
    I'm not sure I understand. There are song specific leaderboards, and someone with 750 coins has just as much of a chance getting #1 on that song as someone with 75,000 coins. We've even seen instances where people playing with no power ups outscored people with full load outs.

    Or are you talking about the overall total score leaderboards? Those, as with all past RB games, do favor people that play the most songs and get the highest score on all of those songs.
    Hairy_Cabbage;4861238 said:
    but dont get me wrong, as for as the game its self is, im really enjoying it, i was only putting forward my concerns about the coins, and all that means is, i wont be playing it as much as i first intended and i wont be buying as much dlc as i first intended, i still enjoy the game, but most likely wont find myself playing much past collecting all the achievements (not inc dlc ones).

    I'm glad you're digging Blitz, even if you're not crazy about the economy.
  • Hairy_CabbageHairy_Cabbage Unsigned
    edited August 2012
    hmxhenry;4861339 said:

    Or are you talking about the overall total score leaderboards? Those, as with all past RB games, do favor people that play the most songs and get the highest score on all of those songs.

    Yes, this is the leaderboard i was referring too, you should consider adding an additional leaderboard for the core game songs only, it would be MUCH appreciated by me and many other people im sure, were not all made of money im afraid, doesn't mean we don't want a chance at the top spot. :)

    as for the coins, im not hugely sad about it, i mean, i was a tad annoyed when i first realised but eh, whats a few days grinding coins to play for highscores with, right? :P
  • HMXMister_GameHMXMister_Game Harmonix Developer
    edited August 2012
    Odin Force;4861163 said:
    I had a dream that you could trade in 1,000,000 coins to get to make up clues for DLC for a day.

    That's a GREAT idea. Start saving.
    Hairy_Cabbage;4861373 said:
    Yes, this is the leaderboard i was referring too, you should consider adding an additional leaderboard for the core game songs only, it would be MUCH appreciated by me and many other people im sure, were not all made of money im afraid, doesn't mean we don't want a chance at the top spot. :)
    Pretty unlikely that we could patch this into the game, but it's certainly something we might add to the Facebook App. How would you feel about that?
  • atalkingfishatalkingfish Opening Act
    edited August 2012
    hmxhenry;4861145 said:
    No, that's gross. We have zero plans to do that.

    This was a concern I had. I wasn't too worried because (1) I trust that HMX isn't gimmicky like that and (2) the coin system has its own benefits, mentioned earlier, that make them useful anyway.

    I will admit that I found it annoying to have to hold off on using power-ups because I couldn't afford them, but I still don't know the optimal way to gain coins other than just playing songs, so I'm sure that will smooth out over time.

    If HMX has no plans to charge for coins, I will be happy. As far as casual gaming goes, it is my biggest pet peeve (see Bejeweled Blitz)
  • Hairy_CabbageHairy_Cabbage Unsigned
    edited August 2012
    HMXMister_Game;4861380 said:
    Pretty unlikely that we could patch this into the game, but it's certainly something we might add to the Facebook App. How would you feel about that?

    I guess the facebook app would be kinda cool, although i wont get much e-peen from it. but seriously, its nice of you to say that, but i still feel missing something like this from the game was odd, it almost felt like u didnt want to invite any new music gamers beyond the people who already played your previous games.

    Make sure u throw it in if u ever need to update the game for whatever reason k? :)
  • lazyhoboguylazyhoboguy Unsigned
    edited August 2012
    The coin system bothers me a bit too. Even if you play a song and do very well on it, you don't earn enough coins to replenish your powerups in all 3 slots, so you basically have to grind on songs without any powerups, so you can occasionally have powerups equipped and be competitive for the high scores. If you engaged in all the social features you probably would have a ton more coins, but they keep telling us all that stuff is optional. It's true the social features are optional to engage in, but it feels liek the coin system punishes us if we dont use any social features, since we cant even get enough coins by playing a song to rebuy all 3 powerups.

    Also, it'd be nice if this game actually let you use powerups offline. I can't see a reason why that's not allowed. The game was designed with powerups in mind, and makes the offline singleplayer feel ruined to me. Any plans to patch that in? To allow us to use powerups in offline mode? I am a big fan of Frequency and Amplitude, both which were primarily singleplayer experiences. Competing with yourself to beat your own high score was the funnest part of those games, but it's been stripped from this game because core gameplay elements (using powerups) are not allowed in the offline mode.

    Maybe Harmonix was worried a bout people racking up coins/blitz cred in offline mode and using it once they were back online, but this problem could easily be avoided. Earning blitz cred is what you have to do in order to even unlock powerups in the first place. You need the coins to buy powerups you've unlocked before each song. So they could either just take out the entire coins/blitz cred system in the offline mode and allow you access to all powerups, or just let you continue to earn coins/blitz cred to unlock and buy powerups in the offline mode. They could even make the offline section of the game's coin/blitz cred points you earn completely separate from the online portion of the game, so people cant stock up on them in offline mode and use them in the online mode.
  • atalkingfishatalkingfish Opening Act
    edited August 2012
    Goodness, guys, it hasn't even been a day yet. Give it some time, try everything out, you'll be surprised at what ends up being fun. Getting coins on this game is in no way difficult, and you're never at a loss for them if you just play and keep things mildly varied.
  • pksagepksage Unsigned
    edited August 2012
    I have the same concern as the OP.

    I don't have a beef with the coin system itself. It's a swell way to encourage people to buy more DLC, play unplayed songs in their library, and boost engagement with goals, Score Wars, and general FB integration. This is all super cool! This part I have no problem with.

    As others have said, if I feel like sitting down for an hour or two and trying to gold star a difficult song, I can only do this so many times before I am required to go do something else to "refuel". To most people, this is laughable. "Why are you trying the same few songs over and over, nerd? Go play something fresh! This game is about variety!" The Rock Band community, though, is full of people who like the "score attack" element, and I'm not convinced that they can't coexist peacefully with this system.

    To any of us who enjoy playing for 5* and gold stars, a lack of powerups feels like a forced limitation, rather than the powerups seeming like "a nice boost". It is next to impossible to 5* many songs with really good "vanilla" play, and most 4- or 5-part songs are definitely impossible to GS without a full loadout. This is concerning, because -- as others have said -- even if there's a surplus of goals right now, what about a few months down the road? Score War will always be there, but 3 days for an average of 500 coins? That's not even a single song's powerups.

    I think there is an easy solution for this, which is to adjust coin costs so they are more "renewable". Ideally, 5-starring a song you've already played would return exactly as many coins as you put into it. 5-starring is a good measure of skill; it takes some planning and dexterity to 5-star a song. 4-starring should refund only a portion of the coins, and GSing should generate a small profit. At the very least, I feel like a gold star should recoup your costs, because hey, you just gold starred a song! This could be easily achieved by reducing powerup costs or making 5* and GS scores return more coins. (There are plenty of other possible solutions, too. Perhaps GSing a song earns you free powerups on your next song, and no others. Perhaps there could be tiers of Blitz Cred that reduce the cost of a certain powerup; I actually like this idea a lot, as it rewards hardcore players for their dedication to the game in a more tangible way than "I have more cred than you".)

    I know that any fix requires a patch, which requires lots of money, and so I fully expect the answer to be a kind "deal with it". I just think it's a shame to discourage "score attack" on particular songs when competition is, in many ways, the heart of Blitz.
  • TweekfuTweekfu Unsigned
    edited August 2012
    So to get a decent amount of coins i need to have a facebook app?

    I never thought i would buy a game on xbox live arcade and be hamstrung because i dont have a facebook account.

    not everyone has/wants a facebook account and to limit my coins because of that is kinda sucky.
  • VildiilVildiil Unsigned
    edited August 2012
    I basically agree with what Pksage posted. After spending a couple of hours with the game and getting a full understanding of how it works it became very clear the entire point of the game is appropriate Power Up selection per song in order to get 5 and gold stars.

    I do think the game is fun, but I also find it a bummer to play a song without a load out and get a poor score just so I can play another song with a load out to get a good score. This game to me is all about getting a good score, I'm not really playing it for the music like I would if I was playing Rock Band 3. So being hamstrung by this coin system essentially make's me less interested in playing because it hinders how I want to play the game. :(
  • metalkornmetalkorn Rising Star
    edited August 2012
    lazyhoboguy;4861415 said:
    The coin system bothers me a bit too. Even if you play a song and do very well on it, you don't earn enough coins to replenish your powerups in all 3 slots, so you basically have to grind on songs without any powerups, so you can occasionally have powerups equipped and be competitive for the high scores. If you engaged in all the social features you probably would have a ton more coins, but they keep telling us all that stuff is optional. It's true the social features are optional to engage in, but it feels liek the coin system punishes us if we dont use any social features, since we cant even get enough coins by playing a song to rebuy all 3 powerups.

    Also, it'd be nice if this game actually let you use powerups offline. I can't see a reason why that's not allowed. The game was designed with powerups in mind, and makes the offline singleplayer feel ruined to me. Any plans to patch that in? To allow us to use powerups in offline mode? I am a big fan of Frequency and Amplitude, both which were primarily singleplayer experiences. Competing with yourself to beat your own high score was the funnest part of those games, but it's been stripped from this game because core gameplay elements (using powerups) are not allowed in the offline mode.

    Maybe Harmonix was worried a bout people racking up coins/blitz cred in offline mode and using it once they were back online, but this problem could easily be avoided. Earning blitz cred is what you have to do in order to even unlock powerups in the first place. You need the coins to buy powerups you've unlocked before each song. So they could either just take out the entire coins/blitz cred system in the offline mode and allow you access to all powerups, or just let you continue to earn coins/blitz cred to unlock and buy powerups in the offline mode. They could even make the offline section of the game's coin/blitz cred points you earn completely separate from the online portion of the game, so people cant stock up on them in offline mode and use them in the online mode.

    I can tell you why they don't have the power-ups available in offline, Leaderboards. People would exploit it and make coins completely redundant.

    I use the Facebook app and I love it, but my concern is that the challenges will not update frequently enough or with enough volume. It's great for Day 1, lots to do, but soon it will be pointless until the next update of challenges.

    I understand the concept of the coins, i think it's an interesting idea but I have already been disconnected from the servers once or twice and when you lose your coins and get nothing in return it's rough.

    Interesting experiment, I certainly hope we don't see the coin system in a future RB title though. I love the App though, i just want more variety in challenges and it to be updated on a regular basis.
  • SirDavidTLynchSirDavidTLynch Headliner
    edited August 2012
    Having played all 25 songs + a few DLC, I was able to play almost all the songs with two or three powerups (the track one was the one I'd typically drop if I wanted to save a few coins), only completing one Facebook goal on a whim. It was kind of part of the strategy, deciding if I wanted to go all out, or save the track powerup for the next song. If you're concerned about having to bore yourself with a few item-free runs before trying the song for real, you'll always be able to pull a profit with just one item.

    Facebook goals should make this a complete non-issue, so it might be worth it to make a BS account just for Blitz.
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