Coins - Questioning Their Use...

Hairy_CabbageHairy_Cabbage Unsigned
edited September 2012 in Rock Band Blitz
Thats right, why do coins even exist in this game, a lot of the trailers i saw leading up to the release of this game were talking about how the game will be focused towards gaining points and competitive play. All coins are doing is limiting how many times you can actually play for (what you guys said the game was about several times in different vids) high scores and points.

The ONLY reason I can see the coins being in game for is so you guys can eventually start charging us money for them, in order to allow us to play more high score runs without having to camp a song for coins first, essentially this would make the a "pay to win" style game, which I don't agree with at all.

on a brighter note, im really enjoying the game, although i cant see myself playing it competitively which i had initially bought it for without the removal of coins (or some sort of no power up leaderboards)

Comments

  • edited August 2012
    HMXLachesis;4861230 said:
    What are you doing?!? You're revealing the hidden agenda!

    NEWSFLASH: Game Studio Not a Charity, Actually Charges For Content
  • Meat-PopsicleMeat-Popsicle Road Warrior
    edited August 2012
    It's very easy to get coins, at first. It could get tricky once you run out of all of the easy challenges to complete. Sure, they can add more challenges in the future, but I'm guessing you'll never see something like "Complete 1 Funk Song, Solo" ever again, once you complete it the first time.

    Yes, you can always do Score Wars, though I seem to be limited to doing only one at a time [the one that looks like it was suggested by Blitz automatically, with a random PS3 friend that owns Blitz, and with a random song that we both own?]. I don't currently have any Facebook friends that own Blitz and I might never get any - even if I buy it for all 3 of the PS3 RB3 owners that I am friends with, only 1 of them was ever willing to link their game to FB. I don't blame Harmonix for that situation, and I fully understand the real-life choices they had to make. But it makes the game play a little awkward.
  • edited August 2012
    Hairy_Cabbage;4861238 said:
    u make it sound like a bad thing to play the songs i enjoy, i dont have a huge library, as i havent really played any of the previous rockband games, but i downloaded a few songs which i like, and i enjoy playing them over and over as opposed to playing songs which dont appeal to me just for a coin boost.
    I certainly wasn't trying to make it sound like it's a bad thing to play the songs you enjoy. Play whatever you like! I was only trying to illustrate that there are other ways to play the songs you like that will net you more coins.
    Hairy_Cabbage;4861238 said:
    ...from the videos i saw, i was expecting a competitive leaderboard game, but all i really see is an occasional attempt at a good score and then some grinding, combined with the lack of core song overall leaderboards, meaning i have to own like 1K+ songs if i ever wanted to see the top page of the overall leaderboards.
    I'm not sure I understand. There are song specific leaderboards, and someone with 750 coins has just as much of a chance getting #1 on that song as someone with 75,000 coins. We've even seen instances where people playing with no power ups outscored people with full load outs.

    Or are you talking about the overall total score leaderboards? Those, as with all past RB games, do favor people that play the most songs and get the highest score on all of those songs.
    Hairy_Cabbage;4861238 said:
    but dont get me wrong, as for as the game its self is, im really enjoying it, i was only putting forward my concerns about the coins, and all that means is, i wont be playing it as much as i first intended and i wont be buying as much dlc as i first intended, i still enjoy the game, but most likely wont find myself playing much past collecting all the achievements (not inc dlc ones).

    I'm glad you're digging Blitz, even if you're not crazy about the economy.
  • Hairy_CabbageHairy_Cabbage Unsigned
    edited August 2012
    hmxhenry;4861339 said:

    Or are you talking about the overall total score leaderboards? Those, as with all past RB games, do favor people that play the most songs and get the highest score on all of those songs.

    Yes, this is the leaderboard i was referring too, you should consider adding an additional leaderboard for the core game songs only, it would be MUCH appreciated by me and many other people im sure, were not all made of money im afraid, doesn't mean we don't want a chance at the top spot. :)

    as for the coins, im not hugely sad about it, i mean, i was a tad annoyed when i first realised but eh, whats a few days grinding coins to play for highscores with, right? :P
  • HMXMister_GameHMXMister_Game Harmonix Developer
    edited August 2012
    Odin Force;4861163 said:
    I had a dream that you could trade in 1,000,000 coins to get to make up clues for DLC for a day.

    That's a GREAT idea. Start saving.
    Hairy_Cabbage;4861373 said:
    Yes, this is the leaderboard i was referring too, you should consider adding an additional leaderboard for the core game songs only, it would be MUCH appreciated by me and many other people im sure, were not all made of money im afraid, doesn't mean we don't want a chance at the top spot. :)
    Pretty unlikely that we could patch this into the game, but it's certainly something we might add to the Facebook App. How would you feel about that?
  • atalkingfishatalkingfish Opening Act
    edited August 2012
    hmxhenry;4861145 said:
    No, that's gross. We have zero plans to do that.

    This was a concern I had. I wasn't too worried because (1) I trust that HMX isn't gimmicky like that and (2) the coin system has its own benefits, mentioned earlier, that make them useful anyway.

    I will admit that I found it annoying to have to hold off on using power-ups because I couldn't afford them, but I still don't know the optimal way to gain coins other than just playing songs, so I'm sure that will smooth out over time.

    If HMX has no plans to charge for coins, I will be happy. As far as casual gaming goes, it is my biggest pet peeve (see Bejeweled Blitz)
  • Hairy_CabbageHairy_Cabbage Unsigned
    edited August 2012
    HMXMister_Game;4861380 said:
    Pretty unlikely that we could patch this into the game, but it's certainly something we might add to the Facebook App. How would you feel about that?

    I guess the facebook app would be kinda cool, although i wont get much e-peen from it. but seriously, its nice of you to say that, but i still feel missing something like this from the game was odd, it almost felt like u didnt want to invite any new music gamers beyond the people who already played your previous games.

    Make sure u throw it in if u ever need to update the game for whatever reason k? :)
  • lazyhoboguylazyhoboguy Unsigned
    edited August 2012
    The coin system bothers me a bit too. Even if you play a song and do very well on it, you don't earn enough coins to replenish your powerups in all 3 slots, so you basically have to grind on songs without any powerups, so you can occasionally have powerups equipped and be competitive for the high scores. If you engaged in all the social features you probably would have a ton more coins, but they keep telling us all that stuff is optional. It's true the social features are optional to engage in, but it feels liek the coin system punishes us if we dont use any social features, since we cant even get enough coins by playing a song to rebuy all 3 powerups.

    Also, it'd be nice if this game actually let you use powerups offline. I can't see a reason why that's not allowed. The game was designed with powerups in mind, and makes the offline singleplayer feel ruined to me. Any plans to patch that in? To allow us to use powerups in offline mode? I am a big fan of Frequency and Amplitude, both which were primarily singleplayer experiences. Competing with yourself to beat your own high score was the funnest part of those games, but it's been stripped from this game because core gameplay elements (using powerups) are not allowed in the offline mode.

    Maybe Harmonix was worried a bout people racking up coins/blitz cred in offline mode and using it once they were back online, but this problem could easily be avoided. Earning blitz cred is what you have to do in order to even unlock powerups in the first place. You need the coins to buy powerups you've unlocked before each song. So they could either just take out the entire coins/blitz cred system in the offline mode and allow you access to all powerups, or just let you continue to earn coins/blitz cred to unlock and buy powerups in the offline mode. They could even make the offline section of the game's coin/blitz cred points you earn completely separate from the online portion of the game, so people cant stock up on them in offline mode and use them in the online mode.
  • atalkingfishatalkingfish Opening Act
    edited August 2012
    Goodness, guys, it hasn't even been a day yet. Give it some time, try everything out, you'll be surprised at what ends up being fun. Getting coins on this game is in no way difficult, and you're never at a loss for them if you just play and keep things mildly varied.
  • pksagepksage Unsigned
    edited August 2012
    I have the same concern as the OP.

    I don't have a beef with the coin system itself. It's a swell way to encourage people to buy more DLC, play unplayed songs in their library, and boost engagement with goals, Score Wars, and general FB integration. This is all super cool! This part I have no problem with.

    As others have said, if I feel like sitting down for an hour or two and trying to gold star a difficult song, I can only do this so many times before I am required to go do something else to "refuel". To most people, this is laughable. "Why are you trying the same few songs over and over, nerd? Go play something fresh! This game is about variety!" The Rock Band community, though, is full of people who like the "score attack" element, and I'm not convinced that they can't coexist peacefully with this system.

    To any of us who enjoy playing for 5* and gold stars, a lack of powerups feels like a forced limitation, rather than the powerups seeming like "a nice boost". It is next to impossible to 5* many songs with really good "vanilla" play, and most 4- or 5-part songs are definitely impossible to GS without a full loadout. This is concerning, because -- as others have said -- even if there's a surplus of goals right now, what about a few months down the road? Score War will always be there, but 3 days for an average of 500 coins? That's not even a single song's powerups.

    I think there is an easy solution for this, which is to adjust coin costs so they are more "renewable". Ideally, 5-starring a song you've already played would return exactly as many coins as you put into it. 5-starring is a good measure of skill; it takes some planning and dexterity to 5-star a song. 4-starring should refund only a portion of the coins, and GSing should generate a small profit. At the very least, I feel like a gold star should recoup your costs, because hey, you just gold starred a song! This could be easily achieved by reducing powerup costs or making 5* and GS scores return more coins. (There are plenty of other possible solutions, too. Perhaps GSing a song earns you free powerups on your next song, and no others. Perhaps there could be tiers of Blitz Cred that reduce the cost of a certain powerup; I actually like this idea a lot, as it rewards hardcore players for their dedication to the game in a more tangible way than "I have more cred than you".)

    I know that any fix requires a patch, which requires lots of money, and so I fully expect the answer to be a kind "deal with it". I just think it's a shame to discourage "score attack" on particular songs when competition is, in many ways, the heart of Blitz.
  • TweekfuTweekfu Unsigned
    edited August 2012
    So to get a decent amount of coins i need to have a facebook app?

    I never thought i would buy a game on xbox live arcade and be hamstrung because i dont have a facebook account.

    not everyone has/wants a facebook account and to limit my coins because of that is kinda sucky.
  • VildiilVildiil Unsigned
    edited August 2012
    I basically agree with what Pksage posted. After spending a couple of hours with the game and getting a full understanding of how it works it became very clear the entire point of the game is appropriate Power Up selection per song in order to get 5 and gold stars.

    I do think the game is fun, but I also find it a bummer to play a song without a load out and get a poor score just so I can play another song with a load out to get a good score. This game to me is all about getting a good score, I'm not really playing it for the music like I would if I was playing Rock Band 3. So being hamstrung by this coin system essentially make's me less interested in playing because it hinders how I want to play the game. :(
  • metalkornmetalkorn Rising Star
    edited August 2012
    lazyhoboguy;4861415 said:
    The coin system bothers me a bit too. Even if you play a song and do very well on it, you don't earn enough coins to replenish your powerups in all 3 slots, so you basically have to grind on songs without any powerups, so you can occasionally have powerups equipped and be competitive for the high scores. If you engaged in all the social features you probably would have a ton more coins, but they keep telling us all that stuff is optional. It's true the social features are optional to engage in, but it feels liek the coin system punishes us if we dont use any social features, since we cant even get enough coins by playing a song to rebuy all 3 powerups.

    Also, it'd be nice if this game actually let you use powerups offline. I can't see a reason why that's not allowed. The game was designed with powerups in mind, and makes the offline singleplayer feel ruined to me. Any plans to patch that in? To allow us to use powerups in offline mode? I am a big fan of Frequency and Amplitude, both which were primarily singleplayer experiences. Competing with yourself to beat your own high score was the funnest part of those games, but it's been stripped from this game because core gameplay elements (using powerups) are not allowed in the offline mode.

    Maybe Harmonix was worried a bout people racking up coins/blitz cred in offline mode and using it once they were back online, but this problem could easily be avoided. Earning blitz cred is what you have to do in order to even unlock powerups in the first place. You need the coins to buy powerups you've unlocked before each song. So they could either just take out the entire coins/blitz cred system in the offline mode and allow you access to all powerups, or just let you continue to earn coins/blitz cred to unlock and buy powerups in the offline mode. They could even make the offline section of the game's coin/blitz cred points you earn completely separate from the online portion of the game, so people cant stock up on them in offline mode and use them in the online mode.

    I can tell you why they don't have the power-ups available in offline, Leaderboards. People would exploit it and make coins completely redundant.

    I use the Facebook app and I love it, but my concern is that the challenges will not update frequently enough or with enough volume. It's great for Day 1, lots to do, but soon it will be pointless until the next update of challenges.

    I understand the concept of the coins, i think it's an interesting idea but I have already been disconnected from the servers once or twice and when you lose your coins and get nothing in return it's rough.

    Interesting experiment, I certainly hope we don't see the coin system in a future RB title though. I love the App though, i just want more variety in challenges and it to be updated on a regular basis.
  • SirDavidTLynchSirDavidTLynch Headliner
    edited August 2012
    Having played all 25 songs + a few DLC, I was able to play almost all the songs with two or three powerups (the track one was the one I'd typically drop if I wanted to save a few coins), only completing one Facebook goal on a whim. It was kind of part of the strategy, deciding if I wanted to go all out, or save the track powerup for the next song. If you're concerned about having to bore yourself with a few item-free runs before trying the song for real, you'll always be able to pull a profit with just one item.

    Facebook goals should make this a complete non-issue, so it might be worth it to make a BS account just for Blitz.
  • metalkornmetalkorn Rising Star
    edited August 2012
    SirDavidTLynch;4861877 said:
    Having played all 25 songs + a few DLC, I was able to play almost all the songs with two or three powerups (the track one was the one I'd typically drop if I wanted to save a few coins), only completing one Facebook goal on a whim. It was kind of part of the strategy, deciding if I wanted to go all out, or save the track powerup for the next song. If you're concerned about having to bore yourself with a few item-free runs before trying the song for real, you'll always be able to pull a profit with just one item.

    Facebook goals should make this a complete non-issue, so it might be worth it to make a BS account just for Blitz.

    It's a non-issue until the goals dry up. Which is why i would like to see a lot more up there.
  • pksagepksage Unsigned
    edited August 2012
    A few more thoughts to add to my previous post that might shed more light on the opinion being discussed.

    While I personally know that Harmonix isn't in this to gouge us on microtransactions, I can see why some people might jump to that conclusion (on their Jump to Conclusions Mat). "Why is my pool of limited resources going down faster than it is replenished as I play this song more than once? Clearly there's got to be some way to replenish it so I can keep playing. Oh no...microtransactions for coins would be too good a fit!" In this situation, the hypothetical score attack player might seem whiny and lazy. You might again ask: Why don't they just go play a new song? Well...

    Rock Band 3 has a "number of times played" sort, and this is no mistake. Players have favorite songs, and they want to perform particularly well on those songs. This behavior is hard to keep up when you're spending 750 coins to get 300-450 back. Many people in this thread have defended "vanilla" (power-up-less) play, but that's kind of avoiding the issue. We don't want to play really well and be rewarded with 4*, which is established in Rock Band "canon" as being okay, but not great. We played excellently! We should have gotten 5* or GS! Playing without powerups make 5*/GS all but impossible, and kinda punishes players for not using them. As Vildiil said:
    After spending a couple of hours with the game and getting a full understanding of how it works it became very clear the entire point of the game is appropriate Power Up selection per song in order to get 5 and gold stars.
    This is the point of the game. There's so many things in place stressing Blitz's competitive nature. But how can we be competitive if only a certain percentage of our playthroughs have a chance at competitive scores? How are we supposed to keep interest in tinkering with powerup combinations on our favorite song if we have to switch to unrelated goals for coins?

    Blitz is so much fun, and I want to play it to death. I want to play it until I have good scores on all of my favorite songs, and I want to defend those scores against my friends. But I feel like the coin system is crippling this very desire.

    (A parting note on possible solutions: What if you spent coins as a one-off unlock to unlock a specific powerup slot for a specific song? There might not be a database in place to track that data for each song, but I would much rather unlock the competitive capabilities of a specific song, play that song a bunch to earn more coins, and then unlock another song, etc.

    You could also just say that 5*ing a song earns you free powerups on it for life. Anything that encourages competitive play on a specific song without the crippling coin costs, really.)
  • Hairy_CabbageHairy_Cabbage Unsigned
    edited August 2012
    Pksage, u say the point i was trying to get across so much better than i even could lol.
  • atalkingfishatalkingfish Opening Act
    edited August 2012
    Tweekfu;4861835 said:
    So to get a decent amount of coins i need to have a facebook app?

    I never thought i would buy a game on xbox live arcade and be hamstrung because i dont have a facebook account.

    not everyone has/wants a facebook account and to limit my coins because of that is kinda sucky.

    I haven't used facebook at all and getting coins has not been a problem at all for me.
  • edited August 2012
    Pro Tip:

    You DONT need a full load out of power ups to get a high score.

    I have GS'd several songs with just ONE power up and the payback in coins is.... wait for it...

    Profit.

    People are a trip...
  • Lowlander2Lowlander2 FaIling Star
    edited August 2012
    Honestly, at this point, it's kind of the opposite problem. Even when replaying songs, I'm sitting on so many coins, I don't know why that counter at the top right even exists any more, and I don't know why I should do the goals except that they're there.

    But it's no skin off my back either, so yeah.
  • hodayathinkhodayathink Opening Act
    edited August 2012
    Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I've read in more than a few places that you don't even have to be playing Blitz to get goals (and hence more coins), the "Get X stars on X songs" Facebook goals can be achieved on Rock Band 3. While this doesn't necessarily remove the "grinding" portion of it, it makes it so you don't have to spend coins to get coins.
  • MemoDLSGMemoDLSG Opening Act
    edited August 2012
    Let me just preface this saying that this is all IMO, for me, from my perspective. I do not claim to speak for everyone or anyone, though I'm sure there are at least some people who agree with me.
    hmxhenry;4861145 said:
    Coins (as with most any in game economies) are used to power unlocks or upgrades. You don't start Zelda with a full load out of weapons and when you run out of arrows you may need to buy more.
    I'll stop you here. Flawed analogy, as it's a fundamentally different type of game. In Zelda, finding rupees (exploration) is part of the appeal of the game. Also, they come in such vast quantities that you mostly don't have to worry about you running out (also with arrows and bombs themselves which you also find laying around). For me, grinding for coins is not the appeal of the game (others might disagree, though it is pretty clear from all promo videos/previews etc. that the appeal of the game is playing the songs with powerups and not grinding for coins), and you do need to grind if you don't have new songs regularly and don't do Score Wars/Goals (which I guess is the point of the coins, which is understandable but inconvenient). That is, I have to work to get to play the game I want to play (the songs with the powerups).
    hmxhenry;4861145 said:
    In Blitz, coins will help fuel your power ups and the more coins you have the better your power up load out. If you do well, you should be able to recoup most of those coins, prevented you from having to "camp" or grind songs.
    Well I'm guess I'm not doing well enough then... Right now I'm getting more coins than I spend but only because I'm playing new songs... Each song gives me about 300 to 400 coins (without the doubling) and each powerup costs 200-300 (and you use 3 of them at a time) meaning once I've played all my songs, I'll have to actually grind songs without powerups to get to play the songs with them.
    hmxhenry;4861145 said:
    Additionally, rewarding extra coins for playing new songs actively discourages grinding, as you'll get more coins for playing new songs than you will for replaying the same songs over and over again. On top of that, it encourages users to try Score Wars and RB World Goals, where you should have no shortage of coins to fuel your power ups.
    Wouldn't grinding be discouraged by the inherent displeasure in it? And using Score Wars/Goals encouraged because they're good on their own? Either way, I think there could've been better ways to discourage grinding. For example, in addition to new songs, the 2x bonus could be given to songs not played in a while. Maybe even keep the premium to new songs and give 1.5x coins to songs not played in a while (a month or two). And to encourage using Score Wars/Goals, they could have given out Blitz cred, a number that gives bragging rights but is not needed to play the game. Also, the fact that coins are meant to encourage using Score Wars/Goals *does* imply that there is shortage of coins without them...

    Though I think I'm more saddened by the side effect that coins (as they're dealt with now) introduced; or at least I hope that making the game unplayable as it was designed offline (as it was designed = with powerups) was a side effect and not a deliberate decision. To put it in context, I have one of the old 360 models, one without integrated wi-fi, and I do not plan to either buy an expensive adapter or a new Xbox. My Xbox swaps around between the TV room (next to the router and with an extra Ethernet cable to connect to it) and the living room (which also has a TV and is where we have our occasional Rock Band parties). In the living room I have no way to connect my Xbox to the internet, and so if the Xbox happens to be there then, I cannot play Blitz unless I go move my Xbox downstairs. Sure, a minor inconvinience, but an inconvinience nonetheless, and I guess this little anecdote just goes to say that even with this being a downloadable title, it doesn't guarantee that everyone playing it will have internet access all the time, and assuming so was a mistake that could break the game for some.

    Maybe I'm exaggerating, but the thing is, you could go on and on about how the coin system (and the always-online it implies) is "not that bad", but it is not *good*, as it just creates a barrier between me and enjoying the game I want to play. Sure, that barrier could be broken by playing Score Wars, but what if I don't know any friends who play the game, and I don't want to add random people on Facebook just for that? It could be broken by playing new DLC, but really, I'll buy new DLC if I like the song, not if I need coins.

    TL;DR - I don't like coins because obtaining them is not fun, and that gets in the way of playing the actual game. I also don't like how they're implemented because it means the game doesn't work offline.
    hmxhenry;4861145 said:
    No, that's gross. We have zero plans to do that.
    Well, TBH I would expect nothing of the sort from Harmonix, and it's nice to know for sure. :)

    EDIT: Wow, many posts as I was typing my wall of text. Seems pksage agrees with me with the "coins get in the way of the game" train of thought.
  • HeyRilesHeyRiles Besse's Girl
    edited August 2012
    I feel the experience would be much better off if coins were just removed entirely - I don't think they add anything to the game, and they're just a hindering middleman that all of us can really just do without. It would seem more intuitive to just have the powerups unlock as you receive more cred without having to pay to use them every time, and I don't really understand why both exist together because neither coexist with each other very well

    I haven't had a problem with a lack of coins yet but my main issue was that there wasn't any noticeable indication that I was spending them constantly. There have been a couple songs where I restarted the song near the beginning because I didn't like the path I took, and I'm just now finding out that I spent an additional 700 or so coins every time I restarted. That's really lame and I don't understand the point of that at all, because the intent of most Rock Band games thus far had been grinding to get the best score possible. I don't like that the game punishes me for re-playing songs over and over again

    Furthermore, I really don't like how people that don't have a Facebook are needlessly punished. I think about half of my coins have come from Facebook, and that's a half that people without Facebook won't get. It's counter-intuitive to prevent people from grinding songs by installing coins into the game, yet for people without Facebook, it seems as though they have to grind songs (without powerups) in order to have the coins necessary to play a new song with all three powerups available. Doc said you don't even need three powerups to play effectively, but from what I can tell that's only true for those who are already truly skilled at the game, and I find it near impossible to receive a gold star ranking on a song without all three powerups chosen - and that's a problem for those trying to get all achievements in the game, who will, ironically, have to grind old songs in order to have the coins necessary to attempt a gold star run on a song

    The whole thing seems counter-intuitive and I don't believe anything of value would be lost if coins and coin-spending were simply dropped from the game
  • Crid1968Crid1968 Opening Act
    edited August 2012
    Sorry HMX, I think I'm going to sit this one out. I was genuinely interested in this game, but yesterday I read the forums with growing disappointment as it became apparent to me that the game you've created here simply isn't for me.

    I've played the demo and it was kind of fun, but without decent offline support, it really isn't what I'm looking for.

    Stripped-down offline mode?
    I'm not interested in online leaderboards or how I'm doing against other peoples' scores. I'm really only interested in beating my OWN score. My wife only has an offline profile and has no interest in creating a Silver one, so she wouldn't be able to use powerups or earn coins.


    Coins in general
    One of the things I love about Rock Band is that I can play a handful of tracks and I might beat some of my old scores. Each track is a completely stand-alone thing. In Blitz, I have to save up coins from one track in order to try to get that elusive high score on another track? And if I fail, I'll have to save up again to have another go? That's not fun, that's MMO-style grind.

    Plus the "double points when you first play a track" thing seems totally arbitrary. Once a player has played all tracks once, their progress effectively slows unless they buy more DLC. Again, a bit too MMO-like for my tastes.


    "Social" gaming
    None of my Facebook friends play Rock Band. I'm no fan of Facebook games anyway. I use Facebook, but I turned off apps some time ago because I got fed up with the constant onslaught of game invites. I'm not about to turn it back on.


    Blitz as a track pack
    I might get it for the tracks at some point, but I'm in no rush. I'm only familiar with about half a dozen of the tracks, and two of those I've already played in other Rock Band titles.


    Sorry if this sounds overly negative. I'm not saying the game is bad - it's just not the game I was hoping for. :(
  • HMXMister_GameHMXMister_Game Harmonix Developer
    edited August 2012
    We totally understand that some of you are dead-set against the coins, and others see them as a frustrating bottleneck.

    That said, we'll be watching the coin economy closely and if we feel it's necessary we can adjust it. Please know that we're listening carefully to your feedback.
  • Crid1968Crid1968 Opening Act
    edited August 2012
    Does each track have just one leaderboard? (ie. all scores together irrespective of powerups?) How about a "naked" leaderboard specficially for runs with no powerups? That would address some of the criticism of coins - it would give a reason for doing runs with no powerups.
  • RyRoboRyRobo Opening Act
    edited August 2012
    I completely 100% agree with the comments made by HeyRiles, MemoDLSG, pksage and others in this thread. I understand that without the coin system the Facebook link wouldn't be as meaningful and necessary, but I can't help but feel it shouldn't be necessary anyway. Shouldn't the features of Rock Band World be enough to convince players to join in without the powerup portion of the game seeming almost dependent on it? At the moment for anybody who sees the game the way I do Facebook does not seem optional, I mean, there's no reason this should even require Facebook, you were able to send us challenges through our systems on RB2/RB3, why the change?

    And while, yeah, it probably is possible to get gold stars with a single powerup, I don't want to use a single powerup and get gold stars (Even if I was currently at that skill level), I want to use all three as much as possible to consistently max out the score I'm capable of. That's what I want displayed on the leaderboards for everybody playing, the highest they're capable of, not the score they got when they were trying to save up for coins.

    Right now I'm playing through the Facebook challenges that I can get with the DLC I own to end up with a surplus of coins. To make this as effective as possible I'm not using powerups in the songs I play, and I'm currently sitting at just under 40,000 coins. A full loadout costs 750. I worked out the maths and I'm sitting at 53 songs before I'd need to build coins up again. I know people will say, 'But Ryan, you will earn revenue from finishing the songs, especially if they are tracks you have not played before!', well, yeah, I will, but I have to re-spend my coins whenever I restart a track. Knowing that playing even new songs (Something I don't want to do as I want to focus on where the majority of the competition will be; the Blitz setlist) isn't enough to 'break even' on this limit I'm sitting at around 53 times I can restart a song before I need to rebuild my coins. 25 songs in the Blitz setlist and that means I'm able to spend 750 on the initial play and restart just once for each song.

    That's absolutely crazy for me. In Rock Band 3 I'm constantly resetting the songs I play to try to discover the best path. I've found it necessary to look at songs as many as 5 times before becoming comfortable with the path I've selected - and then I've got to perfect my run, something of great difficulty in Blitz. I understand this is not what the majority of Rock Band players play for, and that's fine, so I never expect my playing style to be the focus of what is essentially a party game, but footage I saw put Blitz in a score competitive light, for the 'Scorehero types', and I don't understand how it could be marketed as such when it's got a mechanic that so obviously punishes competitive playing. To also know it was the coin system that caused this game to be so handicapped when playing offline is also a big blow to it, although I understand your assumption that because you need to be online to download Blitz why this wouldn't be a problem for 95% of players (And, to be fair, it probably isn't).

    But, then, let's consider some other players. What if the only Rock Band game you've bought so far has been Blitz? You've got 25 songs to play, meaning that 'double song' bonus is going to be very shortlived and a lot of Facebook challenges will be out of those players reach. How can you ever expect to be competitive on the leaderboards when everybody else will have an easy run farming for coins on a library they have built up over years? What about if you DO have a library of 1,000 songs and you want to live all of it to its max potential in the Blitz format. Well, we know that playing a new song nets you 500 coins, and every subsequent run is going to net you 250, so every song is going to have to be played... 2 times or something to give you a single shot at each song with all powerups running? That kind of grinding just seems... unneeded...

    Still, it's no use me complaining and not suggesting improvements. Although I feel the coin system entirely is unnecessary I think we all know it'll never be removed, so I'm currently in love with all the suggestions pksage has made so far. 'Tiers' of Blitz cred that make coin spending less hurtful is fantastic IMO. Blitz cred is currently worthless, as far as I can tell, to anybody who has beaten the setlist and unlocked all the powerups (Which takes a few hours). This could give it some extra life and make this number a value that's more meaningful for players, it could turn out a great little mechanic. However, I really like the suggestion that 5*'s would break even, but I do find it easy to reach 5*'s when I'm using powerups as I imagine most players do, so raising the individual price of each powerup while making the cash gain for 4* much lower would probably be necessary to even this out.

    A slight variation on this idea would be to make gold stars profit, 5* break even 4* a considerable loss. The more powerups you use the bigger the 4* loss would be, this would keep the pressure on players who are going 'all-out' with their powerups to perform well or they will be punished (As restarting currently does), rewarding good players for their actions and making coins feel like they're a value that can be retained rather than one that's constantly falling.

    If none of these are great ideas for one reason or another I would settle for the removal of the punishment for restarting a track, even though I feel a more heavy-handed approach would be necessary to fully solve this. I really do feel the removal of the restart punishment for songs is required because as-of-current it is unbelievably harsh. Punishing experimentation, the music game equivalent of exploration, seems so counter-intuitive to game design theory. Exceptional playing should also be rewarded, but as of right now every exceptional play made is still going to ultimately result in a net loss of coins, essentially punishment. Sadly, if any modifications are made to the coin system (Such as being able to net a profit from gold stars, or breaking even) then a no-restart punishment would be very easy to abuse for players to make 'poor runs' as if they never happened. This is part of the problem of subscribing to a strange F2P model in Blitz, it's almost impossible to make a system that balances rewards, feels fair to the player but on the flip side is also not abusable.

    As a side note, this is one of my two problems with Blitz (The other being RB2 style song list without album sorting, something that's really minor in the grand scheme of things and not going to cause me any harm). I'm otherwise in love with how it feels like a Rock Band title despite the, you know, radical redesign of gameplay. The Blitzification process feels absolutely perfect, I can't imagine how you guys managed to translate 5 button guitar/bass/keyboard charts so well, and I really want to spend hours at a time playing on it, pushing my leaderboards to the max because I'm enjoying it that much. This is why the coin system bugs me the most, I'm deeply in love with your game, I just feel like you guys don't want me to play it how I want to! Seriously hoping there's something you guys can do about it - I know patches are expensive.

    I know this post is incredibly long now, but I hope I've given Harmonix some information on what causes this problem for me as a player (And potentially other player groups), and pointed in directions that could eventually lead to a solution. I don't claim to have all the answers, but I hope I've given you a good chunk of research if the coins are something you too think could be improvement that could lead to the game turning out better. Sorry for the length again, hopefully it would be worthwhile if you came to read this far.
  • pksagepksage Unsigned
    edited August 2012
    Doc_SoCal;4862137 said:
    Pro Tip:

    You DONT need a full load out of power ups to get a high score.

    I have GS'd several songs with just ONE power up[...]

    I don't want this kind of thinking to gain ground, because it's flawed logic. You may be able to GS certain songs with a single powerup (especially ones that favor a specific powerup), but your score could always be better with the other two powerups. Blitz makes a big deal out of the leaderboards and competition between friends, and your ability to compete on those boards is hindered by lack of powerups.
  • edited August 2012
    pksage;4862443 said:
    I don't want this kind of thinking to gain ground, because it's flawed logic. You may be able to GS certain songs with a single powerup (especially ones that favor a specific powerup), but your score could always be better with the other two powerups. Blitz makes a big deal out of the leaderboards and competition between friends, and your ability to compete on those boards is hindered by lack of powerups.
    Yes, and no.

    Your score can also be hindered by trying to manage too much at once. If you dont learn the fundamentals and how to manage them individually you will never be as good as someone who can.

    I think many people let e-ego force then into the deep end of the pool when the shallow end has a lot to teach without drowning you. :)
  • atalkingfishatalkingfish Opening Act
    edited August 2012
    Seriously, I have been using three power-ups on every single song and I have no once run out of coins. I think it's at the perfect limit to allow for casual, yet varied, use of the game without worrying too much.
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