Is it always possible to get every instrument to max multiplier?

atalkingfishatalkingfish Opening Act
edited September 2012 in Rock Band Blitz
I've been playing, and I sometimes find that, if an instrument has enough notes to warrant a multiplier increase, but not enough to warrant three multiplier increases, the game still requires you to get that instrument up to up the multiplier limit.

Am I going crazy on this? Because sometimes I swear that there are sections whose notes on keys or vocals or something are simply too limited to reach the full multiplier.

And if that's true, it seems like a very annoying thing to have.

Comments

  • HeyRilesHeyRiles Besse's Girl
    edited September 2012
    Road Rage, if you're extremely lucky, will swerve to hit notes in a later section and will count towards the section you are currently in, so in some cases you may reach a higher multiplier in a song than the current amount of notes will allow
  • CharityDiaryCharityDiary Unsigned
    edited September 2012
    HeyRiles;4868090 said:
    Road Rage, if you're extremely lucky, will swerve to hit notes in a later section and will count towards the section you are currently in, so in some cases you may reach a higher multiplier in a song than the current amount of notes will allow

    That's probably only in extreme cases, though, such as when one section just barely doesn't have enough notes, and the next section has tons of notes, so your Road Rage hits those.

    But typically, it's pretty much impossible to artificially boost the multipliers, because for most songs, if one keys section only has four notes, the next one isn't likely to have many more. So even if you did use your Road Rage, it wouldn't hit that many keys notes. Probably one... maybe two. And since those keys are sometimes double sustains, your Road Rage would completely waste the points you could potentially get from them.

    I can see Road Rage being useful as a contingency if you mess up, and you accidentally don't hit enough notes in one section. You see the checkpoint coming up, and you fire the Road Rage. If you only need one or two more notes, you might get them that way.
  • atalkingfishatalkingfish Opening Act
    edited September 2012
    But this whole "Road Rage" example may work sometimes, but it still leaves many times where it is mechanically impossible to accomplish a full multiplier.

    But what I'm wondering is why they made this a "feature" in the game? It sucks when you spend an entire section upping 3 instruments, and then the vocals come in for four notes and you lose your ability to improve the multiplier. Wouldn't it have made more sense to disable a track (make it playable, but not require it for a multiplier limit increase) if it didn't have enough notes?
  • CharityDiaryCharityDiary Unsigned
    edited September 2012
    atalkingfish;4868098 said:
    But this whole "Road Rage" example may work sometimes, but it still leaves many times where it is mechanically impossible to accomplish a full multiplier.

    But what I'm wondering is why they made this a "feature" in the game? It sucks when you spend an entire section upping 3 instruments, and then the vocals come in for four notes and you lose your ability to improve the multiplier. Wouldn't it have made more sense to disable a track (make it playable, but not require it for a multiplier limit increase) if it didn't have enough notes?

    It does that sometimes, but for some songs, it's like the game completely forgets that there are only 2 keys notes per section.

    I guess, theoretically, it shouldn't matter, because everyone will experience that shortage of notes... but I can't help feeling that on some songs, the Gold Star cut-off is calculated assuming that you got ALL of the multipliers up in ALL of the sections.

    I guess what it really boils down to is.... it's just really annoying.
  • HeyRilesHeyRiles Besse's Girl
    edited September 2012
    CharityDiary;4868095 said:
    That's probably only in extreme cases, though, such as when one section just barely doesn't have enough notes, and the next section has tons of notes, so your Road Rage hits those.

    But typically, it's pretty much impossible to artificially boost the multipliers, because for most songs, if one keys section only has four notes, the next one isn't likely to have many more. So even if you did use your Road Rage, it wouldn't hit that many keys notes. Probably one... maybe two. And since those keys are sometimes double sustains, your Road Rage would completely waste the points you could potentially get from them.

    I can see Road Rage being useful as a contingency if you mess up, and you accidentally don't hit enough notes in one section. You see the checkpoint coming up, and you fire the Road Rage. If you only need one or two more notes, you might get them that way.

    This is why I said it's mechanically possible, but realistically not possible
    atalkingfish;4868098 said:
    But this whole "Road Rage" example may work sometimes, but it still leaves many times where it is mechanically impossible to accomplish a full multiplier.

    There may be a couple extreme cases in early RBN songs where the sections are royally screwed up, but for the most part, it is mechanically possible to get a full multiplier using a Road Rage exploit
  • atalkingfishatalkingfish Opening Act
    edited September 2012
    CharityDiary;4868100 said:
    It does that sometimes, but for some songs, it's like the game completely forgets that there are only 2 keys notes per section.

    I guess, theoretically, it shouldn't matter, because everyone will experience that shortage of notes... but I can't help feeling that on some songs, the Gold Star cut-off is calculated assuming that you got ALL of the multipliers up in ALL of the sections.

    I guess what it really boils down to is.... it's just really annoying.

    The gold star cutoff is what bugs me the most, considering gold stars are hard enough to get anyway.
  • edited September 2012
  • atalkingfishatalkingfish Opening Act
    edited September 2012
    Doc_SoCal;4868227 said:
    The answer is no.

    Clearly, considering I already acknowledged that.

    The next question is "why not?"
  • edited September 2012
    Jibba jabba is not clarity.

    No is clear.
  • atalkingfishatalkingfish Opening Act
    edited September 2012
    Doc_SoCal;4868294 said:
    Jibba jabba is not clarity.

    No is clear.

    An ability to legitimately contribute to discussions is a quality that I would like to see in more of your posts, but that's just me.
  • ThisnameislameThisnameislame Rising Star
    edited September 2012
    Won't Get Fooled Again has a section that's just the first guitar sustain and can't be leveled up at all. I wonder if there are any cases like that that make gold stars literally impossible?
  • atalkingfishatalkingfish Opening Act
    edited September 2012
    Thisnameislame;4868296 said:
    Won't Get Fooled Again has a section that's just the first guitar sustain and can't be leveled up at all. I wonder if there are any cases like that that make gold stars literally impossible?

    I wouldn't be surprised. I accept a challenge, but goodness gold stars are hard. I'd be more willing to accept that if I didn't feel like I was being ripped off on any song that isn't 100% notes 100% of the time.

    I like challenging gold-star cutoffs, but the second that it reaches the point where you have to learn the song specifically to get gold stars is the point where I lose interest. Gold stars, for me, is a sign of a really good sightread, not an accomplishment after repetitive practice.
  • edited September 2012
    Thisnameislame;4868296 said:
    Won't Get Fooled Again has a section that's just the first guitar sustain and can't be leveled up at all. I wonder if there are any cases like that that make gold stars literally impossible?

    I would be very surprised considering how the right combination of power-ups, Blitz bonus and OD trigger timing can really get songs to GS early but I suppose it's possible.

    They simply could not have playtested every single song for GSability.

    I am sure sooner than later someone will declare something un-GSable and them we will see.
  • atalkingfishatalkingfish Opening Act
    edited September 2012
    Doc_SoCal;4868298 said:
    I would be very surprised considering how the right combination of power-ups, Blitz bonus and OD trigger timing can really get songs to GS early but I suppose it's possible.

    They simply could not have playtested every single song for GSability.

    I am sure sooner than later someone will declare something un-GSable and them we will see.

    This is similar to some cases in regular Rock Band. Some drum-light songs are impossible to even five-star

    What's weird about the game mechanics for RBB, though, is that it is not linear. Your first little mistake costs a lot more than your second, or third, etc, because your multiplier keeps increasing. So it's kind of like... if you get gold stars, you did well, but if you mess up at all, you will just barely get five stars, if that.
  • Lawdog1521Lawdog1521 Squirrel Chasing Expert
    edited September 2012
    Doc_SoCal;4868298 said:
    I would be very surprised considering how the right combination of power-ups, Blitz bonus and OD trigger timing can really get songs to GS early but I suppose it's possible.

    They simply could not have playtested every single song for GSability.

    They tested every song for GNFabilty. Since every song failed, they stopped using it.
  • thatmarkguythatmarkguy Road Warrior
    edited September 2012
    HeyRiles;4868102 said:
    There may be a couple extreme cases in early RBN songs where the sections are royally screwed up, but for the most part, it is mechanically possible to get a full multiplier using a Road Rage exploit

    Foreplay / Long Time.

    There are four guitar notes before the first checkpoint, and the first checkpoint comes before any lane has any overdrive notes, so no Road Ragin' allowed.
  • Groudon199Groudon199 1 hour, 39 minutes, 52 seconds
    edited September 2012
    Thisnameislame;4868296 said:
    Won't Get Fooled Again has a section that's just the first guitar sustain and can't be leveled up at all. I wonder if there are any cases like that that make gold stars literally impossible?

    "Indestructible" has no notes at all before the first checkpoint.
  • joseph5185joseph5185 Opening Act
    edited September 2012
    I can imagine this being very frustrating, I really can..

    But, all things considered and the amount of playable songs, assuring that every single song is "fair" and scaled to 100% in terms of play-ability just seems like a daunting task.

    Look on the bright side, this is HMX...

    They have just as much "fan-loyalty", concern, and passion as any, if not more, gaming industry I have ever witnessed.

    DLC every single week since RB 1, RBN introduced to add further flexibility/options, and consistent and timely patches/fixes.

    What shocked me is that so many people were complaining and disappointed that the stage kit was not supported in Rock Band 3, that they actually added it. It's only "shocking", per say, because the stage kit was only available for the xbox 360. But that's really another topic...

    The game is new. Give it some time. I'm willing to bet that more songs are "not broken" than "broken" if you will, so try to focus on those and just be patient.

    =)
  • sieesiee Road Warrior
    edited September 2012
    HeyRiles;4868102 said:
    There may be a couple extreme cases in early RBN songs where the sections are royally screwed up, but for the most part, it is mechanically possible to get a full multiplier using a Road Rage exploit

    Is using Road Rage really exploiting the game?
  • thatmarkguythatmarkguy Road Warrior
    edited September 2012
    siee;4870765 said:
    Is using Road Rage really exploiting the game?

    Using a method that allows you to score more note-hits before a checkpoint than actually exist before that checkpoint could be viewed as an exploit, sure. Not an especially overpowered/devastating one, but it is benefitting from what is likely an unplanned game-engine allowance.
  • Epsilon82Epsilon82 Opening Act
    edited September 2012
    CharityDiary;4868100 said:
    It does that sometimes, but for some songs, it's like the game completely forgets that there are only 2 keys notes per section.

    I guess, theoretically, it shouldn't matter, because everyone will experience that shortage of notes... but I can't help feeling that on some songs, the Gold Star cut-off is calculated assuming that you got ALL of the multipliers up in ALL of the sections.

    I guess what it really boils down to is.... it's just really annoying.
    Yeah, that's possibly what's making Shout so difficult, is that somehow the GS cutoff formula is assuming full multipliers but you can't get more than +1 across the board, and it's particularly insidious when it happens early, because lower multipliers early cascade exponentially across the rest of the entire song.

    It reminds me of RB3's gold star formula assuming 100% solo bonuses, which is just crazy, and made certain songs way more difficult to gold star than others of similar difficulty just due to the arrangement of solos. I'm glad RB Blitz doesn't have that issue, because it just gives 10,000 or 20,000 points no matter how many notes are in it (which is a little odd, but at least prevents songs with long solos from having disproportionate issues with scoring.)
  • thatmarkguythatmarkguy Road Warrior
    edited September 2012
    The songs with extra-long solos in 'normal' Rock Band don't have solos at all in RBB.
  • atalkingfishatalkingfish Opening Act
    edited September 2012
    joseph5185;4870711 said:
    But, all things considered and the amount of playable songs, assuring that every single song is "fair" and scaled to 100% in terms of play-ability just seems like a daunting task.

    No.... it wouldn't take that long..

    if # of notes between gates > # notes needed for a full power up
    trackActivation = 1
    else
    trackActivation = 0

    Seriously, though, it's not that hard.
  • Meat-PopsicleMeat-Popsicle Road Warrior
    edited September 2012
    If some track multipliers can't be maxed out because there aren't enough notes, well then that's useful information to know. Does that make it impossible to get a gold star on the song? As long as it's not an in-game song (for which you "need" to get a gold star, to get a trophy), I don't see how that's a problem. It's part of the game, discovering what can and cannot be done. And, even then, people seem to have found a way around this problem: use a power-up to clear future notes (like a rocket?). So it's not a problem at all, it just required a little creativity, and it took all of a day or so. Don't many games have hidden secrets that aren't found for weeks or months?

    But it seems there are some rules about games that I didn't know before:
    1) you ought to be able to play every song with full power-ups and never run out of coins.
    2) you ought to be able to max out every instrument track on every song before each checkpoint, without using any power-ups.

    Hmmm. OK.
  • GNFfhqwhgadsGNFfhqwhgads 99% Washed Up
    edited September 2012
    Days Without. Has one or two notes on both drums and bass, then goes right to a guitar solo, so a checkpoint is created. Impossible to move at all.
  • thatmarkguythatmarkguy Road Warrior
    edited September 2012
    Take On Me is yet another unmaxable. If you hit every Vocals note before the first checkpoint you still only get to 2x, and there is no overdrive before the first checkpoint so you can't Road Rage / Bottle Rocket second-segment notes before the first checkpoint.
  • Epsilon82Epsilon82 Opening Act
    edited September 2012
    Groudon199;4868743 said:
    "Indestructible" has no notes at all before the first checkpoint.

    I played that song recently, but I can't remember if there was anything weird with the multipliers on that one. Does it give +0 or still give +3? I suppose it doesn't really matter either way as far as scoring goes, since obviously everyone would be working from the same start. The only thing it might do is make Gold Stars tougher, if for some reason the formula assumed being able to get +3 on the first checkpoint and it gives nothing, but I don't think I had any trouble getting Gold Stars on my only attempt.
  • Groudon199Groudon199 1 hour, 39 minutes, 52 seconds
    edited September 2012
    Epsilon82;4873803 said:
    I played that song recently, but I can't remember if there was anything weird with the multipliers on that one. Does it give +0 or still give +3? I suppose it doesn't really matter either way as far as scoring goes, since obviously everyone would be working from the same start. The only thing it might do is make Gold Stars tougher, if for some reason the formula assumed being able to get +3 on the first checkpoint and it gives nothing, but I don't think I had any trouble getting Gold Stars on my only attempt.

    It gives +0.
  • Epsilon82Epsilon82 Opening Act
    edited September 2012
    Meat-Popsicle;4870840 said:
    If some track multipliers can't be maxed out because there aren't enough notes, well then that's useful information to know. Does that make it impossible to get a gold star on the song? As long as it's not an in-game song (for which you "need" to get a gold star, to get a trophy), I don't see how that's a problem. It's part of the game, discovering what can and cannot be done. And, even then, people seem to have found a way around this problem: use a power-up to clear future notes (like a rocket?). So it's not a problem at all, it just required a little creativity, and it took all of a day or so.
    I agree that it's not as much of a problem if it's just happening on random DLC songs rather than core Blitz soundtrack songs, but it's still a problem and should be addressed if possible. I think players have a reasonable expectation that their star score reflects the proficiency of their performance relative to the scoring potential of that song. If it's unduly difficult to get gold stars even on a virtually perfect run, and it's possible to address in the formula, then it should be done.

    I'd note that this would not be unprecedented for Harmonix; they patched the original Rock Band for an issue similar to this (I believe the issue there was that the base score was attributing an unrealistic BRE bonus, making gold stars much tougher to get on certain songs because of it.)

    However, after thinking about this for a while, it's not immediately obvious that there's an easy fix for it because of the nature of the game's scoring that differs tremendously from traditional Rock Band. Let's assume for a moment (and I think this is a reasonable assumption) that the game figures out what the theoretical maximum multiplier for each lane is and then uses that as a sort of base to determine what a reasonable score requirement would be for each star level. Now, my initial thought was that maybe the formula is simply counting the number of checkpoints and assuming that each of those could add +3 to the multiplier, and that maybe they weren't checking for what the true actual max multiplier would be based on the note contents within each checkpoint. This could result in the game assuming a higher max multiplier and then skewing the total score requirement.

    However, it's entirely possible that they're already doing that (and that would be pretty trivial to do, honestly), but it still doesn't matter, because what's actually more important than the total maximum multipliers at the end of the song is what the maximum multipliers are at each stage of the song. For instance, it's one thing to have the game think that the max multiplier is x21 when it's really x18 or something like that. But the actual impact on the scoring is much greater if 2 of those missing multipliers happen at the first or second checkpoint, because then the lower scoring cascades all across the entire rest of the song.

    So it's possible that this is way more complicated than just accounting for individual lower multipliers; you'd need to account for when they happened and then calculate the "spread" effect, which would not be nearly as simple.

    Of course, I could be completely wrong about my assumption of the maximum multiplier impacting the formula this directly, but given my experience so far, I think it fits. As of now, I've played 265 unique songs (almost all of them only once with Road Rage/Blast Notes/(mostly) Super Guitar) and I've gold starred 250 of them. Of the 15 I haven't, the common trend seems to be a combination of either the song being longer in length (which I believe makes Jackpot more valuable and exacerbates early checkpoint misses) or have early checkpoint issues, or both. On none of them did I feel like my actual performance was significantly better or worse than any other song.

    But there's definitely a problem if I am ranked 3rd overall on Keep Yourself Alive, 13th on Hot Blooded, and 14th on Pour Some Sugar on Me (Live) and don't have gold stars. It's just a matter of how difficult it would be to address compared to the more simplistic methods required by traditional Rock Band games.
  • Meat-PopsicleMeat-Popsicle Road Warrior
    edited September 2012
    No, you're right, it's totally "fair" to expect that gold stars should be attainable on every song, even if some wind up being (by the nature of the song) much more difficult than others. It probably shouldn't take a flawless play-through using the ideal power-ups AND an optimal path AND having the random elements to the power-ups work out perfectly to get gold stars. If there are some songs which make you work harder to find that perfect path, or require a creative use of power-ups, that would be an interesting challenge. But I suspect it's more likely that the formula for the gold star level just needs to be tweaked on some songs, and that there was no plan by Harmonix to make the players work extra-hard to solve a baffling puzzle for certain specific songs. I think you're right that Blitz is acting as if it expects the player to get checkpoint multipliers that aren't actually feasible (at least not in any regularly reproducable way). Ideally that could be regonized as a legitimate flaw and patched, as it was in your example with the original Rock Band game and unrealistic BRE score expectations.

    Games used to have all sorts of "unfair" expectations of super-human performance to clear certain stages. But those were different types of games, and this is a different era, and thus I don't think it was ever intended that some songs would require 20 play throughs by a top-level player (using one specific set of power-ups) to get a gold star. Then again, if an in-pack song is one of the tracks affected ("Shout"?), that must have been tested many times, and it must have been decided intentionally that some songs would turn out to be incredibly tricky (but not impossible) to Gold Star in their Blitzified format.
Sign In or Register to comment.