Bottom Line - If You Want to Have the Top Score in Blitz, Become Lucky

uppyb0tuppyb0t Opening Act
edited September 2012 in Rock Band Blitz
There is no way to master this game in its current state. That seems a bit anti-leaderboard.

There are randomly placed power-ups, that react randomly and can completely rock your score or give you nothing useful.

I've played a song twice. The first time I got a pretty decent score, though I messed up quite a bit.
I tried the song again, and did much better and kept my routine standardized, so that I could improve upon what I had learned. Strangely enough I scored less while doing better and using my controllable power-ups in the same areas.

What happens is the middle powerups are so random that they can either make you or break you or just do nothing at all to help.

This makes beating top scores or even your old score just a roll of the die. Who the hell wants to base skill off of luck?

That's like saying you're a good poker player. You have absolutely no control over the cards, the only thing you can control is how much you lead on and your betting.

So you're a good bluffer or know how to read people. There's no such thing as being good at the game itself, because it is completely random. And even with these talents you can still lose if it isn't in the cards.

I'm playing Rock Band, not DnD or cards. Random no so enticing here. Especially when going for Gold or top scores.

Comments

  • atalkingfishatalkingfish Opening Act
    edited September 2012
    uppyb0t;4868312 said:
    That's like saying you're a good poker player.

    You don't play a lot of poker, do you?
  • uppyb0tuppyb0t Opening Act
    edited September 2012
    No, not really. I like playing games that aren't random.

    I like games that require more intelligent challenges or require quick action and logic.

    You could play poker with dice if you wanted to and depending on the person's reaction you could take a stab at it. Tons of games require this talent and are far more entertaining.

    I do win at poker, because I'm very hard to read and am very unpredictable. I have won with the lowest cards at times, but in the end I'm not having much fun.
  • uppyb0tuppyb0t Opening Act
    edited September 2012
    Let's just say that you can be the best and still lose on chance. Not my cup of tea. I'm not a gambler. Casinos aren't built on winners.
  • MagnetMagnet Moderator
    edited September 2012
    What's the alternative? Hand-placing note power-ups for nearly 4,000 songs doesn't seem feasible. Removing them would make the core gameplay quite a bit less interesting.

    I don't think this game needs to be 100% skill-based. Not every game does. I like replaying songs and having a somewhat different experience each time. It keeps things interesting in my book.
  • GNFfhqwhgadsGNFfhqwhgads 99% Washed Up
    edited September 2012
    There's little fun in bright, arcade gameplay with non-random aspects. Finding optimal paths would be boring, and ruin all the enjoyment of seeing Pope get tossed out of first place on Always by someone managing another 80k on top of his score that has stood since pre-launch.
  • Lowlander2Lowlander2 FaIling Star
    edited September 2012
    The note powerups are not completely random. They are seemingly based on a formula which will dictate how often it shows up, and this actually varies between powerups as well. There really was no other way to do it, it works more than it doesn't, and if the formula messes up, it's probably not going to make a difference of more than 10,000 points, which is nothing in any song that goes over 4 minutes.

    So no. Skill still prevails.
  • xzeldax3xzeldax3 Opening Act
    edited September 2012
    uppyb0t;4868312 said:

    I'm playing Rock Band

    No, you are playing Rock Band Blitz.
  • jibjqrkljibjqrkl Eventually Perceptive
    edited September 2012
    so i did a score war the other day

    the other person started, put a score down. which i beat with about 60.000 in 1 try
    next day, i see he beat me again, he has 5.000 points more. it took him 20 tries.

    i play it once more, and beat his score by 20.000.



    so what you are saying that in 1 run, i simply got "luckier" than any of his 20 runs, and that that has nothing to do with skill?
  • RyRoboRyRobo Opening Act
    edited September 2012
    I think the purple notes can make a world of difference much larger than 10,000 points, especially since getting blast notes during a unison bonus late in the game has topped my overdrive to max on some runs and with jackpot that's utterly game changing.

    I agree this isn't ideal for purple notes, but I don't really see any alternative they could have had. Perhaps they could have removed the random chance from the formula, I dunno, and I agree that randomness doesn't have a place in Rock Band but I just don't really see the alternatives. They've not been placing purple notes in the charts so how else are they expected to do it? I can't think of a single cue that's in the DLC files that Harmonix could go off. Perhaps drum fills, but then I can't help but think they'd be way too predictable.

    I agree it's not ideal, but the game is much more fun with purple notes and these powerups being random are a small (And necessary) price to pay for the extra fun they add. I can't see a better alternative, and Blitz (As of current) does rate on skill a whole bunch more than luck. It could be a problem in the future going for top 50 places, but you not topping the leaderboards isn't right now because of purple notes. Trust me.
  • T-HybridT-Hybrid Washed Up
    edited September 2012
    Why do people keep acting like Rock Band and Rock Band Blitz are the same type of game?
  • CloudWolfCloudWolf Road Warrior
    edited September 2012
    uppyb0t;4868325 said:
    No, not really. I like playing games that aren't random.
    Poker isn't random. Sure, the cards you get are semi-random, but the way you use them is based entirely on skill and deception. Hell, the best poker players can even effectively predict what kind of cards they're getting next by calculating the chances of a certain card appearing.

    Rock Band Blitz kinda works the same. The placement of the purple notes and OD is semi-random, but whether you get a high score completely depends on how you use the power-ups.
  • Odin ForceOdin Force Road Warrior
    edited September 2012
    So a shooter shouldn't have leaderboards because you can respawn at random locations?
  • EhfahqEhfahq Headliner
    edited September 2012
    It sounds like Blitz is not the type of game for you then.
  • JQTNguyenJQTNguyen Unsigned
    edited September 2012
    Odin Force;4868523 said:
    So a shooter shouldn't have leaderboards because you can respawn at random locations?
    Yeah, that's totally all luck as well. /sarcasm

    @OP: There's an element of "luck" based on when Purple Notes appear for you, but the game isn't entirely luck based. Note placement is constant, Overdrive allocation is static, and so are the bonuses from the Track Power Ups that you select. That being the case, it's really only the appearance of Purple Notes and your ability to react to them that's the major variant between players. That's under the assumption that all other things remain equal. You could certainly have a "very lucky" run on a song and I could find a Power Up combination that works out better and totally obliterate your score.

    tl;dr: While some of the higher leaderboard scores surely had some luck with Purple Power Ups, no leaderboard score was acquired through luck alone.
  • daxx1970daxx1970 110% Awesome
    edited September 2012
    After reading the enter thread the main thing I take from all of this is Jibs is too lucky, she should be banned from Blitz, and all of her coins should be transferred to me.

    I've played great (I thought) and received 3 stars and I've played crappy (I know) and received 5 stars. I can't figure it out so I just play until my thumbs tell me to play something else.
  • KEWBKEWB Road Warrior
    edited September 2012
    There are random elements to the power-ups, but not nearly enough to make a huge difference, especially when going for the top of the leaderboard. Like you said in the op, kind of like poker to an extent. There's random elements to it, but in the end there's more to it than that. If there wasn't then you wouldn't see the same people in the finals of World Series of Poker tournaments and you wouldn't see the same people in Rock Band Blitz tearing up the top of the leaderboards constantly.
  • RyRoboRyRobo Opening Act
    edited September 2012
    daxx1970;4868607 said:
    After reading the enter thread the main thing I take from all of this is Jibs is too lucky, she should be banned from Blitz, and all of her coins should be transferred to me.
    Heh, no way. Jibs is entirely correct here.

    Blitz values skill way over luck, even if there are luck elements. A game involving elements of luck has never stopped it being competitive before (Even if it's score based) providing it's controlled and easily measurable (Speedruns of games like Goldeneye come to mind, where you can get significant boosts if an enemy shoots you in the back).

    There's no reason luck would devalue Blitz of being competitive, and if you're thinking you're playing poor and getting decent scores (And vice versa) it's just because you haven't really learned what Blitz is looking for in a good or bad score - the game is new, you've just gotta learn it first.
  • LuigiHannLuigiHann Stormtrooper
    edited September 2012
    Magnet;4868328 said:
    What's the alternative? Hand-placing note power-ups for nearly 4,000 songs doesn't seem feasible. Removing them would make the core gameplay quite a bit less interesting.

    It's completely possible to "seed" the generation of a "random" number in a way that, when the seed is reused, the same number occurs. So it would be possible to seed the powerup note placement based on some concrete variable pulled from the song data so that they're effectively random yet still consistent each time the song is played, across all players.

    Not saying that they should have done it that way, but it would be feasible. And with so many variables in terms of powerup selection and track jumping, every playthrough could still be different even if the chart was set in stone.
  • cinnfullcinnfull Unsigned
    edited September 2012
    uppyb0t;4868326 said:
    Let's just say that you can be the best and still lose on chance. Not my cup of tea. I'm not a gambler. Casinos aren't built on winners.
    Your poker analogy is bogus. Poker is a game of skill. The house has no action in the game. The house collects "rake" and doesn't care who wins or loses.

    Hell, even a federal judge agrees that poker is a game of skill.

    http://www.opposingviews.com/i/entertainment/gambling/poker-game-skill-not-gambling-judge-rules
  • atalkingfishatalkingfish Opening Act
    edited September 2012
    As a person who plays poker regularly with his friends, I can confirm that poker is definitely more skill than luck.

    And, of course, so is this game.

    So I disagree with the premise of this thread.

    Plus, randomness gives an advantage to those who play more frequently, and that seems totally fair.
  • SurefireDwarfSurefireDwarf Unsigned
    edited September 2012
    Aren't white notes at the same places that they are in regular Rockband? It's definitely more skill than luck though. If two equally skilled players played a song with the same power ups, they'd likely come within 1% of each other. However, if one of them picked bad power-ups, that could really kill their score. Picking the right power ups is a skillful decision as well.
  • MagnetMagnet Moderator
    edited September 2012
    LuigiHann;4868736 said:
    It's completely possible to "seed" the generation of a "random" number in a way that, when the seed is reused, the same number occurs. So it would be possible to seed the powerup note placement based on some concrete variable pulled from the song data so that they're effectively random yet still consistent each time the song is played, across all players.

    I'd hate for one of my favorite songs to have randomly-placed note power-ups in awful spots that were permanent.
  • Bront20Bront20 The Writing's on the Wall
    edited September 2012
    KEWB;4868622 said:
    There are random elements to the power-ups, but not nearly enough to make a huge difference, especially when going for the top of the leaderboard. Like you said in the op, kind of like poker to an extent. There's random elements to it, but in the end there's more to it than that. If there wasn't then you wouldn't see the same people in the finals of World Series of Poker tournaments and you wouldn't see the same people in Rock Band Blitz tearing up the top of the leaderboards constantly.
    They can make a several hundred thousand point different on single lane songs due to when you can activate the Pinball.
  • uppyb0tuppyb0t Opening Act
    edited September 2012
    Magnet;4869148 said:
    I'd hate for one of my favorite songs to have randomly-placed note power-ups in awful spots that were permanent.

    What I'm trying to say with this thread is that there is no even playing field.

    You may like that, but if you want the top score, it will have to rely on luck of the draw for note placement.

    Having those in permanent spots would likely be beneficial for top score competition. You know what to expect and can prepare and react with some foresight.
  • Bront20Bront20 The Writing's on the Wall
    edited September 2012
    uppyb0t;4869165 said:
    What I'm trying to say with this thread is that there is no even playing field.

    You may like that, but if you want the top score, it will have to rely on luck of the draw for note placement.

    Having those in permanent spots would likely be beneficial for top score competition. You know what to expect and can prepare and react with some foresight.
    They're generally random in a particular area though. So they may not always be in the same spot (sometimes they are), but they tend to be in a particular area.
  • uppyb0tuppyb0t Opening Act
    edited September 2012
    Meaning it will always grant you a different score?
  • MagnetMagnet Moderator
    edited September 2012
    uppyb0t;4869165 said:
    Having those in permanent spots would likely be beneficial for top score competition. You know what to expect and can prepare and react with some foresight.

    But I like not knowing what to expect. Part of the fun in this game for me is that the player has to be able to react and adapt to random note power-up placements. I'm okay with not getting number one on some songs if it means the songs never get completely predictable.

    Permanent spots for note power-ups would likely be detrimental for top score competition when a song becomes a solvable math problem for the highest score, and players are forced to take a specific path with no margin for error to attain the highest possible score. That may be something that sounds fun for you, but I don't want this game to become like that, and it would make the game much less fun for me. I like going into a song with a general high-level strategy and not having to invest a ton of time studying a song and following a specific path just to get number one.
  • RoboEnigmaRoboEnigma Opening Act
    edited September 2012
    I like it. I'm usually around the same area of the leaderboards too, so I know it's not just "random".

    Personally, I'd rather have this. It gives people a chance to overtake each other because there is no "perfect path".

    It also adds replay value, which I would much rather have than what we had in RB. Plus I think the masses would agree... people got tired of regular Rock Band... it was always the same stuff with predetermined paths. I wish some of this stuff would move over to the normal series, actually.
  • lightsup55lightsup55 Opening Act
    edited September 2012
    I have the top number 1 score in a song, but I'm not going to mention it if someone else just wants to attempt to beat it.

    Hint: Xbox 360 release. I have linked my Facebook account, so that should make it a little easier. Good luck finding what song it is as you probably don't even have it.
  • Bront20Bront20 The Writing's on the Wall
    edited September 2012
    I think the moral of the story is outside of some minor variation, a good player will generally get a good score regardless of the random element. Occasionally, the random element my greatly effect the score (particularly folks using Pinball), but in general, it will work itself out.

    That said, it doesn't make the coin system more appealing.
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