Anti-Social Goal System - Please address!

A_Drunken_SmurfA_Drunken_Smurf Unsigned
edited September 2012 in Rock Band Blitz
The goal system for goals in which you can have others join to help you is currently, in my opinion, slightly flawed. Presently, you get coin payouts based on how many songs you played towards the goal. This makes sense in principle - the people who put the most in should get the most out, right?

Here's the problem - I was at work today, and got invited to join a friend's Dave Grohl goal - I join, and see a bunch of other friends in the group. We start talking about who has what DLC, and I'm excited to get home and start cracking on this goal (which has a nice coin payout to boot).

I get home, boot up, hop on Facebook to see what needs to be done...

And see the goal is 2 songs from completion. By the time I get into the game, the goal is complete. I have been awarded 0 coins for the goal, and it is no longer available for me to select again, since it's considered complete.

The worst part is, I could have completed this goal by myself; I had enough DLC to do so. So I start looking at all the other goals I had joined that day, and sure enough, most were about to be completed. I was able to salvage a few coins from some of the others, but it made me wonder how many people were going to join goals in the future once they realize that if they don't play in them fast enough, they will forever lose the coin bonus associated with it.

What's worse - people can join your goals, and complete them, without you ever having an opportunity to stop them. If I'm at work, and am going through the goals, and start a few so that when I get home I can get cracking, other people can join that goal and complete it without my consent, and I get 0 coins and no chance to replay the goal. That's an issue.

Now, I get why it's like this: it prevents people who had no songs for the goal from free-loading and getting coins for doing nothing. But there should be some minimum payout for anyone who joins the goal - say 10% of the total. At the least, someone who contributes nothing should be able to do the goal again (it won't mark as complete).

Bottom line is that I may be less inclined to join group goals for fear that I won't get a full payout, or that it will be completed before I get a chance to play it. I certainly won't bother responding to requests at work (which means I might miss out on groups that fill up quick).

Note: This doesn't apply to "community goals" - I know that that is a base payout for everyone, regardless of participation level.

Comments

  • Ralphy2009Ralphy2009 Opening Act
    edited September 2012
    A_Drunken_Smurf;4868400 said:
    If I'm at work, and am going through the goals, and start a few so that when I get home I can get cracking, other people can join that goal and complete it without my consent, and I get 0 coins and no chance to replay the goal. That's an issue.

    There are issues with the Facebook system and better ways things could be done, but I think you only have yourself to blame for this approach. Don't start goals long before you start playing if you don't want other people to join and finish them for you.
  • Bront20Bront20 The Writing's on the Wall
    edited September 2012
    You joined a goal? Must be nice. Wish I could do that.

    Yeah, I think they need to overhaul it a bit, and they likely will.
  • hodayathinkhodayathink Opening Act
    edited September 2012
    If I were them (Harmonix), I'd fix it by making it so that if you do a goal as a group, but end up getting no payout from it, then the don't get marked down as having completed the goal. That way, if this happens to you, you can just start the goal over again. And your friends shouldn't be able to do this to you again, since they've already completed the goal. Or if they can (and do), then they're dicks and you should think about de-friending them.
  • A_Drunken_SmurfA_Drunken_Smurf Unsigned
    edited September 2012
    While on this topic, and expanding on what you said, Hoda, the system should allow you to replay goals, but only give you coin payouts if you play songs that you didn't play in previous completions. This would solve a couple of problems: 1) It would allow you to help friends who ask for help after you've completed a goal 2) It would allow you to get coins for goals that were completed by others before you could get to them 3) It would allow you to get more life out of older, more general goals (if abuse is a concern, restrict this to Medium or Hard challenges, which tend to be more specific)
  • A_Drunken_SmurfA_Drunken_Smurf Unsigned
    edited September 2012
    Ralphy2009;4868403 said:
    There are issues with the Facebook system and better ways things could be done, but I think you only have yourself to blame for this approach. Don't start goals long before you start playing if you don't want other people to join and finish them for you.

    That may work for some people, but my schedule doesn't have that flexibility. I get a little personal time at work to do things like this, because when I get home, I'm tending to my family's needs, not mine. Once I get some time to play late at night when everyone's asleep, I want to play games, not go through Facebook, accept all the pending requests, read through and tell folks what I can offer towards the goal, and then wait while the app and the game sync up.

    But if that's what I have to do, because it's my fault, then it proved my point that goals are anti-social. I could complete these things on my own, but I like the social aspect.
  • Bront20Bront20 The Writing's on the Wall
    edited September 2012
    Ralphy2009;4868403 said:
    There are issues with the Facebook system and better ways things could be done, but I think you only have yourself to blame for this approach. Don't start goals long before you start playing if you don't want other people to join and finish them for you.
    No offense, but that argument is blaming the victim. It's hardly his fault for joining his friends in a goal before he had a chance to play.

    Me, if I can do a goal myself, I generally won't join a group. If I can't, then I will.

    I think groups need to be more fluid though. I started a goal earlier, then got an invite from a friend later. Now, we can't group together because we've both started the goal. Say I have a goal I can't hit and I know it, well, I can't quit it at all, even if quitting it wouldn't let me try it again.
  • Ralphy2009Ralphy2009 Opening Act
    edited September 2012
    Bront20;4868413 said:
    No offense, but that argument is blaming the victim. It's hardly his fault for joining his friends in a goal before he had a chance to play.

    No offense, but that's how the goals work right now. It is his "fault" for joining his friends in a goal too far in advance of when he would be playing, allowing others to complete it in the meantime. You don't have to like that goals work that way, but if you understand how goals work and still choose to join goals far in advance anyway, then the "victim" is allowing himself to be "victimized." If I understand that ice cream is bad for me and I choose to eat a lot of ice cream and put on weight, I don't think I can call myself a victim. I can ask the manufacturer of the ice cream to put out a healthier product, but if I decide to load up on ice cream while I'm waiting and let the damage add up, I'm hardly a victim.
  • CharityDiaryCharityDiary Unsigned
    edited September 2012
    Ralphy2009;4868421 said:
    No offense, but that's how the goals work right now. It is his "fault" for joining his friends in a goal too far in advance of when he would be playing, allowing others to complete it in the meantime. You don't have to like that goals work that way, but if you understand how goals work and still choose to join goals far in advance anyway, then the "victim" is allowing himself to be "victimized." If I understand that ice cream is bad for me and I choose to eat a lot of ice cream and put on weight, I don't think I can call myself a victim. I can ask the manufacturer of the ice cream to put out a healthier product, but if I decide to load up on ice cream while I'm waiting and let the damage add up, I'm hardly a victim.

    But people are joining HIS goals, not the other way around. He can't really do anything about that.

    So is it his fault for starting that goal? I guess you could also say that it's a rape victim's fault for being a woman (statistically)? Just saying.
  • Casto21Casto21 Rock and Roll Statistician
    edited September 2012
    A_Drunken_Smurf;4868400 said:
    ...got invited to join a friend's Dave Grohl goal - I join, ...
    CharityDiary;4868422 said:
    But people are joining HIS goals, not the other way around. He can't really do anything about that.

    Actually his main part of the post was about him joining someone else's goal.

    To me, if you join one and don't get to complete many (or any) songs then that is completely on you. You chose to join those people. If they are your friends and you discussed stuff, then make sure they know who is doing what. If they don't abide by the agreement then don't join them again.

    On the flip-side, having other people join and complete your own goals without invites is a bad implementation. I would like to see joining be restricted to invites.
  • Ralphy2009Ralphy2009 Opening Act
    edited September 2012
    CharityDiary;4868422 said:
    But people are joining HIS goals, not the other way around. He can't really do anything about that.

    So is it his fault for starting that goal?
    No one can join your goal and complete it for you until you actually start the goal yourself. It is extremely risky to start a goal a long time before you start to play. If he's willing to take that risk and comes out of it for the worse, then that's his choice. The other choice is to start the goal shortly before playing the game.

    Obviously a restricted system to prevent unwanted joining like Casto said would be best, but unfortunately that doesn't exist at this time. So the only way to combat unwanted joins is to minimize the time other people can join and start goals shortly before playing the game.
  • A_Drunken_SmurfA_Drunken_Smurf Unsigned
    edited September 2012
    I address both issues - joining early, and starting a goal early. I can certainly understand why joining a goal early is my risk - however STARTING a goal early should not be "my fault" if RANDOM people join my goal and complete it.

    This thread is talking about how the current goal system encourages anti-social behavior - ie: not wanting to join or create goals for fear they will be completed by the time you get started on them. Not joining or creating well ahead of time is not a viable solution for me - not for the limited time I get to play - the 20 minutes out of the 1-2 hours I have in a day to play games should not be spent preparing to play a game.

    This could easily be resolved by allowing players who contributed nothing to re-do the goal. There's no harm in this.

    The BEST solution would be to allow players to replay any goal at any time. You only get coins for the songs you haven't played in previous attempts. This would solve all problems.
  • jeronemitchelljeronemitchell Road Warrior
    edited September 2012
    I kinda wish I knew the coins for goals were split. I don't mind working together for a goal that I don't have all of the songs for. However, as Red Hot Chili Peppers is my favorite group to make Rock Band, I would have done the Blood Sugar Sex Magik goal by myself with no problems. As-is, an evening's work for 5,000 coins became a short but fun session for 1,700 or so.

    I feel sorry for the poor guys that played one song and then went to work or something...

    I understand how it could still be cooperative; I wish I could have joined with someone to finish Parenthetically Speaking, and I'm sure it is worth it to do the Dave Grohl goal... but I wish I had some advance notice.
  • osteofightosteofight Road Warrior
    edited September 2012
    A_Drunken_Smurf;4868400 said:
    Here's the problem - I was at work today, and got invited to join a friend's Dave Grohl goal - I join, and see a bunch of other friends in the group... By the time I get into the game, the goal is complete. I have been awarded 0 coins for the goal, and it is no longer available for me to select again, since it's considered complete.

    Ditto for me. I checked out the group system at work and signed on to a few. My groupmates banged out a few before I got home. I was pleased as punch until I saw I had a 0 coin payout.
  • Meat-PopsicleMeat-Popsicle Road Warrior
    edited September 2012
    Bront20;4868406 said:
    You joined a goal? Must be nice. Wish I could do that.

    Yeah, I think they need to overhaul it a bit, and they likely will.

    Just to confirm: joining / inviting others to join goals doesn't work at all with PS3, right? At least not if your only Facebook friends that have Blitz are on the 360?
  • CJHobbesCJHobbes Road Warrior
    edited September 2012
    There are really two issues I have with the Group Goals as they are.

    1) I wish it was communicated more clearly that your payout is based upon your contributions to the goal. I don't remember seeing anywhere on the Goals page that tells you this. I only knew that it worked like this because I read the forums, which not everyone does.

    2) I wish you could help out a friend with a goal even after you've completed it. I don't care about being rewarded a 2nd time; I'd play songs for free to help a friend out if I could.

    I think it could be a neat feature, but I don't think it was implemented all too well. There's room for improvement.
  • Bront20Bront20 The Writing's on the Wall
    edited September 2012
    Meat-Popsicle;4868470 said:
    Just to confirm: joining / inviting others to join goals doesn't work at all with PS3, right? At least not if your only Facebook friends that have Blitz are on the 360?
    No clue, I can invite 360 folks on the PS3, but I have yet to get a join to work.
  • MurphyRockMurphyRock Rising Star
    edited September 2012
    Wow, when you share a goal with someone the payout is split? I had assumed that each person would get the full payout! What's the point of giving anyone else the chance to join your goal? Also, I sense that "goal sniping" is going to become a major sport of some Blitz griefers out there...

    Harmonix, you're being WAAAAAAY too stingy with the coins! This problem wouldn't even be a problem if everybody who joined the goal got the full payout when the goal was completed. You realize you don't want to be a miser? How come everybody wanna keep it like the Kaiser? Give it away, give it away, give it away now!
  • A_Drunken_SmurfA_Drunken_Smurf Unsigned
    edited September 2012
    MurphyRock;4869282 said:
    You realize you don't want to be a miser? How come everybody wanna keep it like the Kaiser? Give it away, give it away, give it away now!

    Not bad, but you do know it's Linkin Park week, not RHCP, right? :P
  • HMXMister_GameHMXMister_Game Harmonix Developer
    edited September 2012
    This is a totally valid complaint about the system, but I don't have a good solution. The point of this was to get people to cooperate on songs. It's really unfortunate that you didn't get to participate especially since you had all that DLC.

    One of our original designs had a more "leader/follower" model of the group, where one person got to decide who was invited/kicked. But it had such a large requirement for explanation and messaging that we went with a much simpler/cleaner system where everyone is basically equal.

    One solution: if you don't contribute anything you get to re-do the goal, seems very reasonable. I just wonder how often that's going to happen in practice.

    Another solution: allow you to replay the goal but only get credit for songs that you didn't do the first time. Whew! That seems like a great deal of work, and also hard to make the players understand what's happening on subsequent playthroughs.

    As for allowing people to just replay goals: central to the design of the goal system was to make it a single shot reward, as a way of keeping the goal content fresh.

    And there's another reason that we don't want repeat completions which will be revealed in the near future.
  • A_Drunken_SmurfA_Drunken_Smurf Unsigned
    edited September 2012
    HMXMister_Game;4869507 said:
    And there's another reason that we don't want repeat completions which will be revealed in the near future.

    Oooh... a carrot.. I love carrots! Let me just gra... hey... get back here.. I'll just reach out an.. damnit! Stop moving!

    Yeah.. I can understand that balancing act needed between simplicity of the process in setting up groups, and some of the tools needed make those groups functional. Frankly, if re-doing goals where there was no contribution was implemented, I think it would go a long way to making the current implementation less frustrating. Being able to re-do goals for NO credit and for NO additional badges, but to help out friends who start goals later would be cool too, if implementing advanced song tracking is too complex.

    Look forward to the near future's announcement.
  • johnnyboybladejohnnyboyblade Opening Act
    edited September 2012
    HMXMister_Game;4869507 said:


    And there's another reason that we don't want repeat completions which will be revealed in the near future.

    Interesting.............

    @CJHobbes:

    I'd also like to be able to help people out after completing a goal but not receiving a reward afterward. It would also provide an opportunity to work towards "something" so to speak after doing all the goals yourself.
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