New TV, Cannot get vocals right at all :(

pixie126pixie126 Unsigned
edited January 2013 in Peer To Peer Support Forum
My husband and I had to buy a new tv. We went from a Sony DLP to a Sharp LED.
When we tried to play Rock Band 2 on this new tv (via Xbox 360), everything was way off. I calibrated it (manually) and it brought my husband's guitar work into focus so that he could play (setting: audio 75, video 65), but the vocals are way off the map. The mic we had always been using suddenly sounds tinny, and on songs I usually 100% suddenly I fail. What I am singing and seeing do not seem to match. I tried to calibrate further, but nothing seems to alleviate this problem. Help! I almost no longer want to play!

Comments

  • nuttzo31nuttzo31 Opening Act
    edited January 2013
    Does the tv have some sort of game mode setting on it? Try turning it on or off and see if that helps.
  • pixie126pixie126 Unsigned
    edited January 2013
    I tried that. Was originally on movie mode. Tried the game mode. That didn't seem to affect whatever is going on to any appreciable degree.
  • AlternityAlternity Road Warrior
    edited January 2013
    Did you tried to calibrate the game using the auto-calibration that is on the RB2 and up guitars, and the Mustang? Maybe your calibration is simply not right, I often see people having trouble calibrating their games. It might be playable on the guitar, but the video is somewhat off (60ms for an LED tv sounds high, I have a LCD TV and my calibration is at 40ms for video, and AFAIK LCDs are more laggy than LEDs, and if you're using TV's speaker, I don't think 75ms is right, I've never seen a TV above 20ms audio delay... If you're using a sound system, it's a complete other story, my system is a surround system, 220ms) if you can't see vocals at the right time.

    If you don't have access to a RB2 guitar, or a Mustang, I suggest taking a good look at the calibration, testing without sound, if the video looks fine when playing guitar/drums (the gems (rectangular things you hit) should disapear at the right spot, when you hit it at the right spot), then add sound, and keep testing until it's right. If you still have the problem, I really have no idea, but the TV can't be the problem for sure, it's just physically impossible. An error as low as 5ms can throw off gameplay.
  • nuttzo31nuttzo31 Opening Act
    edited January 2013
    I am using a pioneer surround sound receiver and an lcd tv and my audio is about 25ms and video 80ms but if i have the dolby digital option in rock band 3 set to on the audio goes out to about 80ms. Do you have or can you rent a guitar hero game and try calibrating that and see if you have the same problem.
  • AlternityAlternity Road Warrior
    edited January 2013
    80ms video? wow. I knew LCDs could lag, but that's high lol. And nice sound system though, 80ms with dolby, that's a nice low latency frankly for it. I have an old reciever, so it takes time to decode, lol.
  • pixie126pixie126 Unsigned
    edited January 2013
    Well, I have somewhat given up on this. It's not great, but if I have to put up with being unable to achieve the scores I used to so be it. It's a simple system, using the TV's speakers, nothing fancy, but we don't have a RB2 guitar, just the original ones. Calibrating using the on-screen tests is about worthless. I get results in the hundreds for those. I have tried so many permutations of the manual calibrations that my head started spinning. I can try using our copy of Guitar Hero to see if that does anything, but as the problems lie with the vocals and not the guitar, I am unsure of what it may accomplish. Thanks for all the tideas. It is appreciated!
  • nuttzo31nuttzo31 Opening Act
    edited January 2013
    What model of tv are you using? Perhaps someone else has that particular model and can suggest a workaround.Can you rerun the audio through a hifi or something instead of the tv speakers?
  • AlternityAlternity Road Warrior
    edited January 2013
    What you seem to not understand is the guitar, bass, and keys (in the case of RB3), and easily played out of sync compared to vocals, and I speak by experience, if you're really using the TV's speakers and affirming that your settings on the calibration are at 75ms for audio, there's a problem, I don't think it's possible, I can assure you, it's a problem with your calibration, and the best way to calibrate RB (or GH), is with an instrument, not with vocals, as I explained earlier.
  • pixie126pixie126 Unsigned
    edited January 2013
    The TV is a Sharp Aquos LED. There is no way I will use the receiver I use with my computer because we don't have speakers other then my desktop ones I run on my PC.
    The reason I am concerned with the vocals as opposed to guitar, is that I don't play the guitar. I cannot. Well, except to laugh at the fact that I cannot even reach all the keys.
    I have ranged the calibration settings all over the map, even into the negative for giggles. It just sounds and feels like crap vocally. I get an echo for some reason, and have the mic sensitivity and volume all the way down to minimize it. If I turn either up it appears.
    When my husband attempted to use the guitar (not a rb2, rb1) at first to calibrate, it came up with something like 115 for audio and 193 for video. And all those tests ask for you to do is hit the A button at the appropriate time. I will see if I can locate GuItar Hero now and try it with that.


    No dice with the GH. It is gone. Gack...
  • pixie126pixie126 Unsigned
    edited January 2013
    Attempted to calibrate using their on screen tests. This involves for Audio hearing drum taps and hitting strum on the guitar. This ended up with a value of 156 ms.
    The video is watching a needle go from left to right and strumming when they hit their extremes. This ended up with 191 ms.
    I attempted to play an apprentice song, using the bass on easy, but managed to fail as I could not get the strumming correct. I just couldn't get it to match up.
    These numbers seem ridiculous. But this is what the game is giving me. After those, the numbers 75 and 60 don't seem too bad.
  • AlternityAlternity Road Warrior
    edited January 2013
    I'm not talking about this kind of calibrating, but calibrating manually, trying numbers for video, turn off sound on your tv, try to play with you eyes only, untill you find the right numbers, then add sound and do the same, but with your ears only...

    From a wild guess, I'd say 25-50ms video and 10-30ms audio should be your numbers, but every TV is unique. If you only you lived in my area, I'd go calibrate it for you, I've done calibration so many times it doesn't take me long. lol
  • pixie126pixie126 Unsigned
    edited January 2013
    Well, I could get the video to 30 using my pathetic bass skills.
    My husband is doing the audio as I cannot guesstimate sound without seeing the notes.
    We so far have it set at 110 for the audio. He seems to like that so far. He is trying more and more difficult songs to see how they feel.


    Ack, he is playing Greatful Dead now....but he is not screaming so I guess it is going ok. I figure we will just calibrate it to him as he plays on expert and I could care less about it. Hard is good enough for my vocals.
  • AlternityAlternity Road Warrior
    edited January 2013
    As I'v said before, a calibration that is not optimal might be playable for instruments, but for vocals.. its another story, have you tryed plaing without looking at the screen at all (like a karaoke, on a song you know) and see if it works? That on trying performance mode on vocals, when you know the song it's not that hard, and you can see if you can actually use sound instead of video, I, personally, don't care if video isn't calibrated correctly, as long as sound is good, but a lot of my friends (I am experienced player and they're not) can't play if the video isn't calibrated properly.
  • nuttzo31nuttzo31 Opening Act
    edited January 2013
    Alternity;4968270 said:
    What you seem to not understand is the guitar, bass, and keys (in the case of RB3), and easily played out of sync compared to vocals, and I speak by experience, if you're really using the TV's speakers and affirming that your settings on the calibration are at 75ms for audio, there's a problem, I don't think it's possible, I can assure you, it's a problem with your calibration, and the best way to calibrate RB (or GH), is with an instrument, not with vocals, as I explained earlier.

    What experience are you talking of? You can't play guitar,bass or keys out of sync and the auto calibration for video relies on a series of flashes that the "eye" of the auto calibration picks up on. If you tap the controller button to calibrate the vocals then the vocals should be calibrated but i guess that there is another issue here? 75ms for audio seems to be a audio processing issue maybe? Comb through the settings of your tv or like i said try rerouting the audio and see if that helps.
  • pixie126pixie126 Unsigned
    edited January 2013
    I will try my vocals tomorrow maybe.
    I can try to see what will happen if I attempt to freestyle the vocals.
    I have my husband doing it now as he tends to play the guitar using his eyes less than I do.
    Too many years of reading sheet music, you put something resembling it in front of me and I will try to read it...
  • AlternityAlternity Road Warrior
    edited January 2013
    nuttzo31;4968307 said:
    What experience are you talking of? You can't play guitar,bass or keys out of sync and the auto calibration for video relies on a series of flashes that the "eye" of the auto calibration picks up on. If you tap the controller button to calibrate the vocals then the vocals should be calibrated but i guess that there is another issue here? 75ms for audio seems to be a audio processing issue maybe? Comb through the settings of your tv or like i said try rerouting the audio and see if that helps.

    As I've seen with my casual players friends, they are usually unsuccessful calibrating the ''normal'' way (using the calibration system of the game), simply because they aren't tight enough with the rythm. This is my experience, alot of people who thinks their game are calibrated correctly, then I come to their house, and play a song and notice that everything is wrong, I do it myself and then everything works fine. It's really all about it. Nothing personal, not trying to insult anyone, but this is usally the case.
  • AlternityAlternity Road Warrior
    edited January 2013
    pixie126;4968311 said:
    I will try my vocals tomorrow maybe.
    I can try to see what will happen if I attempt to freestyle the vocals.
    I have my husband doing it now as he tends to play the guitar using his eyes less than I do.
    Too many years of reading sheet music, you put something resembling it in front of me and I will try to read it...

    You can't play without reading (unless you know the part by heart), what I mean by playing with sound is not trying to hit when the note is at the place where it should be hitted, but instead using the sound to know when to hit the note, using the rythm, the beat...

    Kinda hard to explain the concept of the timing window.. lol
  • IcemageIcemage Road Warrior
    edited January 2013
    pixie126;4968280 said:
    Attempted to calibrate using their on screen tests. This involves for Audio hearing drum taps and hitting strum on the guitar. This ended up with a value of 156 ms.
    The video is watching a needle go from left to right and strumming when they hit their extremes. This ended up with 191 ms.
    I attempted to play an apprentice song, using the bass on easy, but managed to fail as I could not get the strumming correct. I just couldn't get it to match up.
    These numbers seem ridiculous. But this is what the game is giving me. After those, the numbers 75 and 60 don't seem too bad.
    What? You shouldn't be getting 170+ms lag times in Game Mode, not even on the worst of TVs.

    Without game mode, yes, you might see 200ms or so in a worst case scenario.

    Are you sure you've enabled Game Mode properly?

    Also, you mentioned you're using a Sharp Aquos LED TV, but not what specific model number. A Google search came up with this interesting information on what you might try setting your TV to (assuming it has similar menus):

    http://www.seasonedgamers.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=79855

    EDIT: I'm guessing that neither you nor your husband plays on Expert difficulty on any instrument aside from vocals, or you wouldn't be getting such a huge gap in calibration numbers. Do you know someone who actually has a good sense of timing who can help you calibrate?
  • pixie126pixie126 Unsigned
    edited January 2013
    Well, we have the audio set at 120. My husband likes it for his playing guitar on expert. I was able to 98% (hard) in training mode a song I can sing with my eyes closed. The only problem came with the tambourine taps, but eh....if I have to try a little harder with those so be it.
    We will have to see how we like it when playing together.

    I also took the TV off game mode. The brightness was irritating my eyes so I went to movie mode which is what we usually watch.

    Just an fyi the TV is officially a Sharp Aquos LC-60LE640OU. Had to search for that on the back of the tv.
    Thanks for all the info! It was very nice of you all!
  • pixie126pixie126 Unsigned
    edited January 2013
    Alternity;4968314 said:
    You can't play without reading (unless you know the part by heart), what I mean by playing with sound is not trying to hit when the note is at the place where it should be hitted, but instead using the sound to know when to hit the note, using the rythm, the beat...

    Kinda hard to explain the concept of the timing window.. lol

    I let my husband take care of that. HE was trying to explain how he does it, and it started giving me a headache, so I let him do his thing. He played progressively more difficult songs on expert to test the audio, and he finally came up with a number he says works for him. I will go with that.

    He's also a drummer, but I am not sure the drum set works well enough to calibrate with it ( he's a little hard on it :) )

    Thanks for all the info :)
  • IcemageIcemage Road Warrior
    edited January 2013
    pixie126;4968575 said:
    Well, we have the audio set at 120. My husband likes it for his playing guitar on expert. I was able to 98% (hard) in training mode a song I can sing with my eyes closed. The only problem came with the tambourine taps, but eh....if I have to try a little harder with those so be it.
    We will have to see how we like it when playing together.
    Never go by % on vocals as your calibration tool, even if you're playing on Expert. I can 100% songs on Expert even with calibration being off by as much as 50ms in many cases.
    I also took the TV off game mode.
    No, no, no, no. It's a game console. Leave that input on Game Mode!
    The brightness was irritating my eyes so I went to movie mode which is what we usually watch.
    Then turn down the brightness and calibrate your TV brightness/contrast? Don't mess around with your settings and live with horrible lag.

    Most TVs these days only apply brightness and contrast settings on a per-input basis, so changing it on one input should not affect settings on other inputs.
    Just an fyi the TV is officially a Sharp Aquos LC-60LE640OU. Had to search for that on the back of the tv.
    I'm drawing information from the manual from Sharp USA on your TV, and it does look like it supports independent settings for brightness, etc. per input.

    I'm concerned about your comment regarding not seeing a difference in calibration between Game Mode and Movie Mode. That should not happen, ever, unless your sense of timing is really far off. You say your husband plays on Expert Guitar, though, so I'm not sure what to make of that.

    Bear in mind that it's very easy to become accidentally accustomed to bad calibrations - so much so that an actually good calibration will "feel bad".
  • jibjqrkljibjqrkl Eventually Perceptive
    edited January 2013
    Icemage;4968946 said:

    No, no, no, no. It's a game console. Leave that input on Game Mode!

    this. no matter what you do with the calibration, not putting it on game mode makes it so bad that you simply can't get it right.
  • AlternityAlternity Road Warrior
    edited January 2013
    jibjqrkl;4968951 said:
    this. no matter what you do with the calibration, not putting it on game mode makes it so bad that you simply can't get it right.

    My tv is in movie mode and it works right. I like the picture better in movie mode.

    AFAIK, anyways on my TV, those modes only affect picture and not the lag.
  • nuttzo31nuttzo31 Opening Act
    edited January 2013
    I was looking through the manual for the tv and have you tried turning the motion enhancement and digital noise reduction settings off?
  • IcemageIcemage Road Warrior
    edited January 2013
    nuttzo31;4969118 said:
    I was looking through the manual for the tv and have you tried turning the motion enhancement and digital noise reduction settings off?

    Game Mode turns those off - that's sort of the point, as those features are major contributors to lag.
  • pixie126pixie126 Unsigned
    edited January 2013
    I fixed the calibrations in game mode so that I can put the tv on that. I haven't talked my husband into playing yet, so I don't know what will happen when we both attempt it. I keep motion enhancement and noise reduction off even in movie mode, because I can't stand the too realistic lookingness of movies and tv shows with that stuff on. It's too freaky for me. :)
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