disagree with US only giveaways

itarrincaitarrinca Unsigned
edited September 2013 in Rock Band
I'm disgusted because the Giveaway are always for EE.UU residents. you told me that this will change in the future, but this is a lie. I have spent more than 600 euros between dcl, videojugos rock band and instruments and I believe that as a buyer I have the same right to participate. In my opinion, this is discriminatory. Why we should buy to you, if you discriminate against us?

Comments

  • jibjqrkljibjqrkl Eventually Perceptive
    edited September 2013
    It's not like they're sitting in their offices smoking cigars and twirling mustaches while plotting the demise of Europe

    pretty sure the only reason why they're not doing that is because the office is a no-smoking area
  • edited September 2013
    Everything LoopyChew posted is 100% accurate, but I figured it wouldn't hurt hearing it directly from someone at Harmonix as well.

    Some additional context:

    1) Giveaway / contest laws are different in every country. Some have higher age restrictions, some have lower age restrictions, some are limited to specific dollar amounts, some require email sign up, some prohibit email sign up, etc. The point is, international giveaways are difficult for anyone to execute on, because every country you include introduces a new series of legal hoops to jump through.

    2) Every country / region has different translation laws for giveaways / contests. We can't even make a contest available to Canadians without making a French translation of the rules, legal language, and giveaway text available. Extending a contest to Europe would then mean we'd have to offer translations in French, Italian, Spanish, Germany, etc. which requires both a great deal of time and international legal support that we rarely have for simple $2 code giveaways.

    3) The codes we get from 1st party (Microsoft and Sony) don't always work internationally. Sometimes the content that we're giving away only works in the US. That's not because we're mean, that's just how the 1st party codes work.

    It would obviously be in our best interests to include as many people as possible in our giveaways, and we've made repeated requests over the years to include more international players, but given the number of legal hurdles it simply hasn't been possible. But, as LoopyChew mentioned, we'd tried to make more codes available by less official methods that would include those outside the US. He pointed out random code drops on the forums, Twitter, and Facebook, and we also drop them in our livestream chat from time to time. He also pointed out our donations to Rock Band Aide, and we're actually preparing to send them a few hundred additional codes today. Beyond that, we attend a lot of conventions where we give stuff away, including PAX where we doled out 20K DLC codes, and Gamescom (in Germany) where we gave away 20K pieces of exclusive swag.

    We'll continue to do what we can to make giveaways / contests available to international users in whatever ways we can, but when we are forced to do US only please trust that it's not because we're liars or discriminatory. We'd love to do more with our international fans, but it's very, very difficult.
  • AlternityAlternity Road Warrior
    edited September 2013
    hmxhenry;5033228 said:
    We can't even make a contest available to Canadians without making a French translation of the rules, legal language, and giveaway text available.

    I'll do it for free if it's just that. XD
  • edited September 2013
    Alternity;5033266 said:
    I'll do it for free if it's just that. XD

    It's not just that, sadly. We'd need rules specific to Canada since they have different giveaway restrictions. For all I know each province could have different rules (I know some US states have unique concerns regarding contests). Even then, translations would still have to be approved by a lawyer fluent in French, and that STILL wouldn't make all the codes we have region free. It's pretty complicated.
  • brookfieldworldorderbrookfieldworldorder Opening Act
    edited September 2013
    hmxhenry;5033400 said:
    It's not just that, sadly. We'd need rules specific to Canada since they have different giveaway restrictions. For all I know each province could have different rules (I know some US states have unique concerns regarding contests).
    This is true -- some contests here in the Great White North aren't open to residents of Quebec, again using the language example cited earlier. And some contests are Quebec exclusive.

    LoopyChew and hmxhenry have some great advice for you, itarrinca. Take advantage of it.
  • WIIBARONWIIBARON Opening Act
    edited September 2013
    HEY bWo, Wii miss you! The mustache-twirling fatcat powerbrokers are always giving us Wiifolk the shaft too, no matter where you live. They claim that they can't let us in on the fun, even though they did it before[free Doors DLC at launch] and could always send us a Wiipoints gift. But being the internationally disrespected ginger of the consoles just makes them richer while they twirl away...damn 1%ers!
  • brookfieldworldorderbrookfieldworldorder Opening Act
    edited September 2013
    Thanks, Wiibaron - my Wii is getting a new disc drive. When it's fixed, I'll be back.

    I'm sure Harmonix would love to do more giveaways for Nintendo users, but that's a Nintendo thing as to why they don't, not a Harmonix thing. Nintendo tends to give more love to its' first-party developed titles, anyway - your Marios, Zeldas, Metroids, etc.
  • ilyama999ilyama999 Opening Act
    edited September 2013
    Only for US , I dont understand I already won 2 giveaways and I'm from Belgium ...

    Or I simply dont understand :D
  • LoopyChewLoopyChew Wordsmith
    edited September 2013
    WIIBARON;5033543 said:
    damn 1%ers!

    Pretty sure the Wii users are the 1%. (Heyooooooo.)
  • MarkerooMarkeroo Unsigned
    edited September 2013
    brookfieldworldorder;5033582 said:
    Thanks, Wiibaron - my Wii is getting a new disc drive. When it's fixed, I'll be back.

    Hmm... my Wii is also getting a new optical drive. Conspiracy?
  • brookfieldworldorderbrookfieldworldorder Opening Act
    edited September 2013
    Markeroo;5033684 said:
    Hmm... my Wii is also getting a new optical drive. Conspiracy?

    LoopyChew's making sure the number of Wii users stays at 1%. (Heyooooooo.)
  • WIIBARONWIIBARON Opening Act
    edited September 2013
    Exactly what prevents the cigar chompers from sending Wiipoints gifts to winners? Online or physically. Wii were/are about 30% of the disc sales, actually more than the PS2/3, albeit only 5ish% of DLC. Rodney Dangerfield got more respect. MsNBC gave more respect to fatcat Romney. And lately, my game disc seems off and is sorta uncalibrateable. Am I next for a repair ticket on my day 1 Wii?
  • edited September 2013
    WIIBARON;5033543 said:
    The mustache-twirling fatcat powerbrokers are always giving us Wiifolk the shaft too, no matter where you live. They claim that they can't let us in on the fun, even though they did it before[free Doors DLC at launch]
    Just because it's a thing we were allowed to do once, that doesn't mean it's a thing we were allowed to do again. I will cite the example of free tracks on the Wii: just because we were allowed to release "Still Alive", that doesn't mean we were given permission to do the same again for other releases. For The Doors DLC in particular, that was the result of several months of work leading up to a special timed event, the launch of a brand new title, AND it was 3 years ago. Just because we were given permission once, 3 years ago, for a major title launch, that doesn't mean we'll be given permission for every random giveaway we want to execute.
    WIIBARON;5033700 said:
    Exactly what prevents the cigar chompers from sending Wiipoints gifts to winners? Online or physically.
    A great many things, including, but not limited to:

    1) The majority of the 360 and PS3 codes we give away were given to us by Microsoft and Sony. Nintendo doesn't send any promotional codes.

    2) Buying codes is prohibitively expensive, especially in the volume we've been giving them away. A large financial commitment to content we'll give away to support a 3+ year old game is, as I'm sure you realize, not the highest priority.

    3) We're giving away $2 codes for 360 and PS3. To my knowledge, you're not able to buy such small quantities of Wii points, with $10 / $20 cards being the norm.

    4) Buying physical Wii points cards (if they did exist in those lower quantities), at cost, and then physically mailing them to people is extremely counter productive. The cost of purchasing cards, the cost of shipping, the cost of packing materials, and the time required to pack codes in the kind of volume we're used to (1-5K winners) is pretty ridiculous.

    5) Possibly most importantly, Wii Points are money. Nintendo does not offer content specific codes, so while we can giveaway codes for American Pie or London Calling on 360 and PS3, Nintendo offers no such code bundling. Sending Wii Points to people offers absolutely zero guarantee that they would be used on Rock Band content.

    All together, the idea of paying full retail price for physical $10 code cards that people could spend on anything they want, then spending additional time and money to ship them out... versus offering codes that Microsoft and Sony provided us that can be tied to specific Rock Band tracks that we can email out in large quantities?
    WIIBARON;5033700 said:
    Wii were/are about 30% of the disc sales, actually more than the PS2/3, albeit only 5ish% of DLC.
    While both of those numbers are speculative at best, the DLC number is the more important one to note. Wii users, historically, have purchased far less DLC than their 360 and PS3 counterparts. There is significantly less interest among Wii owners in giveaways that we run in general (even in the past when we have offered discs, hardware, or console agnostic swag). Add to that the fact that Nintendo is nowhere near as flexible or supportive of digitally distributed content, and you should have a better idea of why we're not including Wii in giveaways.

    We would love to be able to include the Wii in these giveaways, but given the lack of support, restrictions on distribution, and the significantly smaller audience, it's just not possible unless the system changed. If Nintendo started sending us codes, or offered codes tied to specific content, I would GLADLY roll them into the giveaways. But slipping $10 in an envelope and mailing it off in the hopes that someone uses it on RB DLC is far from a realistic solution.
  • WIIBARONWIIBARON Opening Act
    edited September 2013
    It is nice to get a well explained reasoning from someone for a Wii 'issue'! Surely better than the previous 'looking into it, working on it, in the future, or as time permits' responses Wii have been used to. Thank You. As far as the giveaway of points goes, emailing a 16 digit code to someone probably takes as much time and effort and money as notifying PS360 winners. With the winners of such contests being the hardcore fan of this game I would bet 98% would buy what the prize was intended for, especially Wiifolk. Lastly, did Wii not buy nearly 2 million DLC of the 45 million sold that are available for us to buy? 5ish percent. Also buying 5.7 million of the almost 19 million discs you sold to rock fans around the world? With PS2/3 at 5.6 million? With the Wii version of 7 out of the 12 discs selling the most? If not, please let us all in on some real figures instead of these I found on the net.
  • LoopyChewLoopyChew Wordsmith
    edited September 2013
    WIIBARON;5033851 said:
    emailing a 16 digit code to someone probably takes as much time and effort and money as notifying PS360 winners.
    You're making the unlikely assumption that getting the codes to PS360 winners is a process which requires a lot of manual intervention. As Aaron mentioned, Sony (US) and Microsoft have streamlined this process, whereas Nintendo is pretty adamantly against it. For Nintendo, they'd have to wrangle up codes, and then collate & organize them into a database (well, they could use a spreadsheet, but that'd be worse) where they can keep track of where they were given away and to whom. And this is assuming they can get their hands on the codes in a reasonably legitimate manner (you think they could walk into GameStop and be like, "hi, I'd like to order a 100,000 thousand-point Wii point cards"? Ever read the fine print on those things? Pretty sure there's something preventing them from being used by commercial entities, though I could obviously be wrong).
    With the winners of such contests being the hardcore fan of this game I would bet 98% would buy what the prize was intended for, especially Wiifolk.
    You'd be surprised at how often people who don't care about a product will enter a giveaway when money is involved. Once again, you're running off an assumption that has no basis in reality, nor one that make business sense, particularly when a ten-dollar Wii point card would actually cost them ten dollars out of pocket (I'd presume that part of Sony/MS's deal involves them footing a portion of the bill for the giveaway codes, maybe only having to cover the first-party costs or something).
    If not, please let us all in on some real figures instead of these I found on the net.

    Please understand that your question, paraphrased, is "I'd like you to disclose confidential sales information that we deliberately keep obscure and, as a member of the Community team, you likely have no access to anyway!"
  • BVP2K10BVP2K10 Opening Act
    edited September 2013
    this thread was better with the title "disagre"
  • tiagosouzatiagosouza Unsigned
    edited September 2013
    Yes, its very frustrating being pushed from a contest once that is possible and legal to spend money on the game (internationally) but is not possible receive rewards for being a franchises fan.
  • brookfieldworldorderbrookfieldworldorder Opening Act
    edited September 2013
    As much as it would have been nice for Wii users to have been included in the giveaways, it's just not realistic to expect Nintendo and/or Harmonix to do anything about it now. This is a three-year-old game played on a console that is no longer Nintendo's top priority as far as supporting.

    The manufacturer has moved on, the developer has moved on and gamers will have to move on, too (some, no doubt, already have). At least the servers are still running and Harmonix has committed to renewing the licences on the vast majority of its catalogue of songs -- a commitment level that is rare in most video games.
  • edited September 2013
    WIIBARON;5033851 said:
    It is nice to get a well explained reasoning from someone for a Wii 'issue'! Surely better than the previous 'looking into it, working on it, in the future, or as time permits' responses Wii have been used to. Thank You.
    I'm here to help!
    WIIBARON;5033851 said:
    As far as the giveaway of points goes, emailing a 16 digit code to someone probably takes as much time and effort and money as notifying PS360 winners. With the winners of such contests being the hardcore fan of this game I would bet 98% would buy what the prize was intended for, especially Wiifolk.
    That's a pretty big "probably" and an equally big "bet", both of which I would disagree with (based on my 5+ years of experience running these giveaways). So ignoring the fact that we'd have to buy Wii points at retail, and pay full retail price, and we wouldn't be able to get them in the quantities we wanted, yes, entering a 16 digit code in an email to someone would take SIGNIFICANTLY more time and effort than the 360 and PS3 contest winners. That's because Microsoft and Sony provided us with codes in organized Excel sheets, and the giveaway tool we use pulls from those spreadsheets. When we run a contest participants enter their email and console, we tell the tool how many random addresses to pull from each spreadsheet, and then the codes go out. So for a giveaway for 9,000 codes, like we just ran for TB:RB's anniversary, the app did most of the heavy lifting.... but doing something similar for the Wii would mean manually entering 9,000 codes into 9,000 different emails at the worst, and manually entering 9,000 codes into a similar spreadsheet at the best.

    And that still doesn't guarantee that people would use those codes for RB, and $10 per user is a big risk to take.
    WIIBARON;5033851 said:
    Lastly, did Wii not buy nearly 2 million DLC of the 45 million sold that are available for us to buy? 5ish percent. Also buying 5.7 million of the almost 19 million discs you sold to rock fans around the world? With PS2/3 at 5.6 million? With the Wii version of 7 out of the 12 discs selling the most? If not, please let us all in on some real figures instead of these I found on the net.
    We don't make a habit of providing console specific sales numbers on demand, but rest assured, most sales numbers you find online are suspect at best. For example, we included DLC sales numbers in almost every RB press release, and as of the 4/2 announcement on the last week of DLC, the number we broadcast was 130 million songs sold. That's a far cry from the 45 million you referenced, so hopefully that provides some perspective as to how off those estimates can be.

    Also of note, statistics like lifetime sales, and downloads to date are less relevant than the number of people active in the community right now. Regardless of how many people bought RB1 on whatever console 6 years ago, giveaways are more often driven by how many are playing, engaging on social channels, and participating right now. That too is a thing we track, and we've got a pretty good handle on how many people play, how much DLC they buy, etc.
  • WIIBARONWIIBARON Opening Act
    edited September 2013
    9000? Are there even 9000 lifetime RB Wii online players? Cumulative? Kidding of course. You can look for randoms on a Saturday night at 10pm ET and wait for 15 minutes before someone joins. TB:RB will leave you on your own nearly every time. I know it is beating a dead horse, but the 100 people left playing on Wii, if all of them won a contest, would cost less than than the security gaurd you must employ to keep your sales numbers on a long dead genre secret...
  • LoopyChewLoopyChew Wordsmith
    edited September 2013
    WIIBARON, are you really saying that the userbase for Wii giveaways is so small that they can simply buy a card and throw it out to one of the hundred active players? Is that really supposed to be incentive for them to drum up a code giveaway for the Wii players?
  • CabanonCabanon Unsigned
    edited September 2013
    ilyama999;5033588 said:
    Only for US , I dont understand I already won 2 giveaways and I'm from Belgium ...

    Or I simply dont understand :D

    Im Canadian and I received a code too but it's not working. it just said "Invalid or already used". AFAIK US & Canada have the same PSN store ? I contacted on both twitter and via email and got no answer on that.
  • edited September 2013
    WIIBARON;5034150 said:
    I know it is beating a dead horse, but the 100 people left playing on Wii, if all of them won a contest, would cost less than than the security gaurd you must employ to keep your sales numbers on a long dead genre secret...
    You're right, that is beating a dead horse.

    There are a lot more than 100 people left playing on the Wii (355 people playing right now in the middle of a Tuesday, for example). And sure, it would be fantastic if we could give codes to everyone on the Wii. It'd be fantastic if we could give codes to everyone on the 360 and PS3, and everyone outside the US as well. But that's not how the world works.

    As for keeping sales numbers "secret", we try to be pretty open regarding a lot of the business that goes on at Harmonix. We've talked about total download numbers, most downloaded bands, most downloaded songs, the licensing process, the re licensing process, and generally try to be more forthcoming than your average video game developer. But that doesn't mean we're obligated to answer every random question that pops up about our sales figures because, frankly, you don't need to know. If Nintendo changes the way they handle code distribution and redemption we'd be happy to include them, but it hasn't happened in the last 6 years, so it's not likely to change at this point.
  • edited September 2013
    Cabanon;5034259 said:
    Im Canadian and I received a code too but it's not working. it just said "Invalid or already used". AFAIK US & Canada have the same PSN store ? I contacted on both twitter and via email and got no answer on that.

    The Sony codes are region coded to the US only. That excludes Canada. That's not our call, that's just the nature of the codes that Sony provided us. Sorry for the confusion.
  • BachiGBachiG Inconceivable...
    edited September 2013
    I mean come on Henry. We're talking $2 per Wii user to make them happy and quit *****ing. Surely you have a spare $200 sitting around in one of those expense accounts you use to travel the world or fill up the corporate helicopter with fuel? Or hell, even just your own money to dole out to the 100 Wii users left?! Even if you have to personally address and stuff the envelops and pay for guaranteed mail/shipping around the world, that's got to be worth the amount of time you have to spend in here responding to the comments. You could probably expense it and get your money back? I'd look into it if I were you.
  • CabanonCabanon Unsigned
    edited September 2013
    hmxhenry;5034271 said:
    The Sony codes are region coded to the US only. That excludes Canada. That's not our call, that's just the nature of the codes that Sony provided us. Sorry for the confusion.

    thanks for awsering. if anyone want a spare code. ill give it to you freely !
  • edited September 2013
    BachiG;5034312 said:
    I mean come on Henry. We're talking $2 per Wii user to make them happy and quit *****ing. Surely you have a spare $200 sitting around in one of those expense accounts you use to travel the world or fill up the corporate helicopter with fuel? Or hell, even just your own money to dole out to the 100 Wii users left?! Even if you have to personally address and stuff the envelops and pay for guaranteed mail/shipping around the world, that's got to be worth the amount of time you have to spend in here responding to the comments. You could probably expense it and get your money back? I'd look into it if I were you.
    Sarcasm Award, Awarded. :P
  • WIIBARONWIIBARON Opening Act
    edited September 2013
    How about changing the price in the Music store to free for a limited time? Back when 4 launched, the Doors 3 were free and are not anymore and the RB2 free 20 are still free to DL 4 years later. Any player who would win a contest or giveaway would be an onliner for sure and this would keep non-onliners from even knowing there were free songs. And other Wiifolk who didn't even know of a contest surely aren't going to go back into the zillions of pages of songs when they probably have the older songs they wanted bought already. Can you feel the love you would be getting from us Wiiers if they could be included in the reindeer games? Bro-love of course, or naturally sis-type love from the lady Wiigurls...NO codes, mailings, Wiicards, security gaurds, or ill-will required. Just WiiLove! It would help us forget that Wii are stuck with the unpatched RB3 forever...
  • DavidTLynchEsqDavidTLynchEsq Opening Act
    edited September 2013
    There's a bit of a difference between giving away one-time codes to contest winners, and making content free for everybody. There's also a difference between introducing a piece of content as free (especially for brief promotional period), and changing the price on content that's been available for years on one console only. Especially when dealing with a first party whose policy on free content has changed over the years.
  • LoopyChewLoopyChew Wordsmith
    edited September 2013
    WIIBARON;5034505 said:
    It would help us forget that Wii are stuck with the unpatched RB3 forever...

    1. What would keep ALL the contest participants from not getting free songs? If you announce a giveaway for, say, RHCP songs, and they're available to everyone for free on the Music Store for a few days, what's the technical difference between that and "we're giving away RHCP for the next few days?"
    2. Based on the answer to that question being "none, really," how do they explain to the rights holders what's going on in a way that the rights holders aren't going to just laugh in their face? Keep in mind that the legacy DLC discount apparently needed multiple years to negotiate--granted, it was more permanent than expected, but still: how do you expect Harmonix to be in a position to say, "hey, can we give away your songs on the Wii platform? Don't worry, it's only to the Wii players, so it'll only be a couple hundred people downloading it in the worst case scenario?" REMEMBER: When it comes to anything dealing with DLC, you're not only addressing Harmonix, but also with first-party and the rights holders. If you're trying to get Harmonix to do you a solid in a way that you can't address the other two parties involved in a Music Store transaction, you can't expect more than a "Sorry, our hands are tied" apology from them.
    3. Knowing that, unless you are a multi-billion-dollar franchise that can buy its own channel, you can't get a patch for your game on the Wii, why do you even slip something like the above comment in? Is it some sort of attempted guilt trip for something that was likely out of Harmonix's control? I understand you're angry about getting a bugged version of the game (did the Wii players get the amp-ramp of death? I'd still be mad if a venue-loading bug kept coming up to bite me in the back), but asking for your pound of flesh now, long after anything COULD be done about it, is beating a deader horse than Wii code giveaways.
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