Song-Specific Changes Coming in April

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Comments

  • VolTRHVolTRH Opening Act
    Actually, here's one charting change I think everyone can get behind. I know this isn't a scoring issue, @HMXCrisis, but hear me out.

    Could you guys please change the outro to "Raining Blood"? As it is, guitarists play the rhythm part instead of the crazy, noisy solo. I've got a feeling this was done this way because this was a pro guitar song. The outro is basically a bunch of nonsense and would be beyond difficult to actually chart out the tablature for it.

    Buuuuuut, since we no longer have pro guitar, can we get that solo now? Pretty please? =]
  • VolTRHVolTRH Opening Act
    edited March 2016

    VolTRH said:

    Actually, here's one charting change I think everyone can get behind. I know this isn't a scoring issue, @HMXCrisis, but hear me out.

    Could you guys please change the outro to "Raining Blood"? As it is, guitarists play the rhythm part instead of the crazy, noisy solo. I've got a feeling this was done this way because this was a pro guitar song. The outro is basically a bunch of nonsense and would be beyond difficult to actually chart out the tablature for it.

    Buuuuuut, since we no longer have pro guitar, can we get that solo now? Pretty please? =]

    No, because they probably don't have access to the stems to do that. The noise is baked into the background in the files. The keys parts being pulled to guitarless songs(and Superstition, apparently) were separated.
    You play both Kerry King's and Jeff Hanneman's parts in the song. I seriously doubt they didn't also have access to the isolated outro solo.

    You also don't know this, which is why I'm asking Criss.
  • LiveHomeVideoLiveHomeVideo Trying too hard

    VolTRH said:

    Actually, here's one charting change I think everyone can get behind. I know this isn't a scoring issue, @HMXCrisis, but hear me out.

    Could you guys please change the outro to "Raining Blood"? As it is, guitarists play the rhythm part instead of the crazy, noisy solo. I've got a feeling this was done this way because this was a pro guitar song. The outro is basically a bunch of nonsense and would be beyond difficult to actually .chart out the tablature for it.

    Buuuuuut, since we no longer have pro guitar, can we get that solo now? Pretty please? =]

    No, because they probably don't have access to the stems to do that. The noise is baked into the background in the files. The keys parts being pulled to guitarless songs(and Superstition, apparently) were separated.
    Then how did GH3 do this? And Guitar Hero Smash/Greatest Hits? I'm thinking that decision had more to do with them not wanting to chart that solo on pro guitar, honestly.
  • VolTRHVolTRH Opening Act

    VolTRH said:

    VolTRH said:

    Actually, here's one charting change I think everyone can get behind. I know this isn't a scoring issue, @HMXCrisis, but hear me out.

    Could you guys please change the outro to "Raining Blood"? As it is, guitarists play the rhythm part instead of the crazy, noisy solo. I've got a feeling this was done this way because this was a pro guitar song. The outro is basically a bunch of nonsense and would be beyond difficult to actually chart out the tablature for it.

    Buuuuuut, since we no longer have pro guitar, can we get that solo now? Pretty please? =]

    No, because they probably don't have access to the stems to do that. The noise is baked into the background in the files. The keys parts being pulled to guitarless songs(and Superstition, apparently) were separated.
    You play both Kerry King's and Jeff Hanneman's parts in the song. I seriously doubt they didn't have access to the isolated outro solo as well.
    They definitely did. And as you can see, we're both using past-tense. They DID. Nearly five years ago. The Rock Band file has one audio file beginning to end for each playable instrument, made of stems(and weaving in and out of some based on needs). No overlap, and everything else is in on background file, no? So, since you never play the noise(which, isn't that just whammy and bending or something? It's not actually notes), it's baked into the background alongside other things that would get muted with misses as well. Harmonix likes proper muting. Fixing charts for songs? Doesn't require stem work. Moving keys charts to guitar? Doesn't require stem work(already isolated and attached to the chart). Swapping Superstition keys and guitar? Doesn't require stem work. Your idea? Requires stem work.
    I already know how stems work, but thanks though.

    Let me ask you something. On that particular part, the outro, what exactly would be part of the background? There's no vocals going on. Drums and bass are already isolated and being played, as well as rhythm guitar. What else is there? Oh, right, the outro solo.

    It's already isolated, as it just happens to be the only thing in the background audio at that moment.
  • VolTRHVolTRH Opening Act

    VolTRH said:

    VolTRH said:

    VolTRH said:

    Actually, here's one charting change I think everyone can get behind. I know this isn't a scoring issue, @HMXCrisis, but hear me out.

    Could you guys please change the outro to "Raining Blood"? As it is, guitarists play the rhythm part instead of the crazy, noisy solo. I've got a feeling this was done this way because this was a pro guitar song. The outro is basically a bunch of nonsense and would be beyond difficult to actually chart out the tablature for it.

    Buuuuuut, since we no longer have pro guitar, can we get that solo now? Pretty please? =]

    No, because they probably don't have access to the stems to do that. The noise is baked into the background in the files. The keys parts being pulled to guitarless songs(and Superstition, apparently) were separated.
    You play both Kerry King's and Jeff Hanneman's parts in the song. I seriously doubt they didn't have access to the isolated outro solo as well.
    They definitely did. And as you can see, we're both using past-tense. They DID. Nearly five years ago. The Rock Band file has one audio file beginning to end for each playable instrument, made of stems(and weaving in and out of some based on needs). No overlap, and everything else is in on background file, no? So, since you never play the noise(which, isn't that just whammy and bending or something? It's not actually notes), it's baked into the background alongside other things that would get muted with misses as well. Harmonix likes proper muting. Fixing charts for songs? Doesn't require stem work. Moving keys charts to guitar? Doesn't require stem work(already isolated and attached to the chart). Swapping Superstition keys and guitar? Doesn't require stem work. Your idea? Requires stem work.
    It's already isolated, as it just happens to be the only thing in the background audio at that moment.
    Yup, on the stems. But it's not on the 'guitar' file for the song. You can't bring it in when the game is already reading a file to stream chart audio from. The guitar instrument never reads audio from the background file and bases its decisions around it. Even if there is no other instrument playing in the background with it, it's still there. It's not in the 'here is the location for the guitar chart and noise' file. It's in the background file. Opening the files to swap them around at that point? Maybe possible? With a redownload if that's beyond the scope of a side-by file in the form of April patch. But that's still more work than they're putting into every other 'change the sound you play' song, which is 'swap entire existing file with other entire existing file for the entire song duration'. To say nothing of charting it(which Harmonix doesn't even chart in-house anymore!).
    And? I asked if it'd be possible. You said no, they don't have the isolated solo. I said they do. Now you're saying it'd be work.

    Well, duh.

    Now we're back to asking if it'd be possible. Man, we've accomplished so much here.
  • VolTRH said:

    I just want songs with massive dead space in them to have alt-charting. I personally can't fathom how playing a piano on guitar takes you out of the experience, but actually playing nothing for 2 minutes doesn't.

    I have not watched any live videos to prove it, but I am sure Brian May did not play piano on his guitar when Queen would play "Somebody to Love"
  • bonethug0108bonethug0108 Headliner
    edited March 2016
    Anything that isn't charted is put in the background sound file. This file cannot be broken apart, cannot be muted when notes are missed without muting the whole background file (if you were to associate it with a chart), and it cannot be mixed and matched with the other sound files.

    You can trade the whole guitar file for the whole background file and you would lose the effect of misses on the guitar part and instead gain the effect of misses on whatever is baked into the background file. It wouldn't match up to what is charted though.

    If they keep the sound files as is they could chart the ending solo but you wouldn't get the miss sound effect on what you were playing and instead have what is in the guitar sound file cut out.

    In order the properly rechart it they way you are suggesting they would have to get the masters again and remix it, rechart it, retest it, and resubmit it. Not going to happen.

    They can switch a chart (and the associated sound file) for another but they cannot remix the sound files because they don't have the stems (masters).
  • VolTRHVolTRH Opening Act

    VolTRH said:

    I just want songs with massive dead space in them to have alt-charting. I personally can't fathom how playing a piano on guitar takes you out of the experience, but actually playing nothing for 2 minutes doesn't.

    I have not watched any live videos to prove it, but I am sure Brian May did not play piano on his guitar when Queen would play "Somebody to Love"
    Difference being that they're putting on a show. I'm just sitting in a room hitting buttons for a video game.
  • VolTRH said:

    VolTRH said:

    I just want songs with massive dead space in them to have alt-charting. I personally can't fathom how playing a piano on guitar takes you out of the experience, but actually playing nothing for 2 minutes doesn't.

    I have not watched any live videos to prove it, but I am sure Brian May did not play piano on his guitar when Queen would play "Somebody to Love"
    Difference being that they're putting on a show. I'm just sitting in a room hitting buttons for a video game.
    Again we play for different reasons. When I play I like to imagine I am the one performing a show, so when my "guitar" makes piano, violin, or trumpet noises it kills my immersion
  • VolTRHVolTRH Opening Act
    edited March 2016

    In order the properly rechart it they way you are suggesting they would have to get the masters again and remix it, rechart it, retest it, and resubmit it. Not going to happen.

    But the background sound file is literally just the outro solo during that part. They'd just have to swap the guitar and background tracks for that particular part of the song.

    It's certainly possible from a technical standpoint, and nothing said so far has proven otherwise. I just want to know if they'd consider doing it. This is, after all, a thread about upcoming song specific changes.
  • They can't swap it just for that part. That's not how the files are set up. You either swap the whole file or you don't.
  • VolTRHVolTRH Opening Act
    edited March 2016

    They can't swap it just for that part. That's not how the files are set up. You either swap the whole file or you don't.

    ...but you can, it's just an audio track. You'd cut and swap the parts out, apply necessary changes to the charts and cues, save, export new audio and midi files, recompile, and upload.

    The only difference in the process with this case and the other songs that are being changed is the cutting up the stems part and the extra effort needed to rechart the outro. Everything else is identical.
  • That's not how they do it at all. There is not cutting and copying and pasting.

    They need the stems to remix the charts.
  • VolTRHVolTRH Opening Act
    edited March 2016

    That's not how they do it at all. There is not cutting and copying and pasting.

    They need the stems to remix the charts.

    But they already have them! They exist through the audio files created in the charting process, and we know they still have those because they had to update every song to be playable in RB4. You can't create a new build for a song if you don't have the audio files.

    I could make a video that shows exactly how they could do it. I still have REAPER and Magma on this computer.
  • bonethug0108bonethug0108 Headliner
    edited March 2016
    No they don't. The stems are not in their audio files. They used the stems to make the audio files. Each song (with the normal layout of instruments) has a compressed guitar, bass, drums, vocal, and background file. These files cannot be separated in any way. They cannot be mixed and matched at will.

    So in order to adjust the audio files in the manner of changing what is on each one can ONLY be done if they have the stems.

    Edit:
    So they made a copy of every master track they received? That's the only way to get the stems.
  • VolTRHVolTRH Opening Act
    edited March 2016
    Ugh, dammit. It seems I didn't remember that aspect of the RBN correctly. I remember needing the stems to make the audio file, but forgot that that process was separate from the compiling process. I just double checked by opening Magma again.

    Sorry, didn't mean to derail this thread this badly. I'm just a simple man who wants to play "Raining Blood" how it's meant to be.
  • It's fine. It happens to us all. :)
  • Hellion4242Hellion4242 Opening Act
    edited March 2016

    I feel like if a song has actual guitar then don't add anything to it.

    better playability is an opinion. I hate playing piano on guitar, so if they switched it back to the RB2 version I definitely would play it much less

    I feel like if a song has actual guitar then don't add anything to it.

    Yep, only change stuff if there is no guitar. Superstition is fine for being changed because clavichord is more suitable than horns and there's no guitar.

    I know I am in the minority here, but also not alone

    that I would rather sit doing nothing for 80% of the song than play piano on guitar. It just kills any immersion I have.

    No one ever complains about long breaks in other instruments, but once there is a song with little guitar people complain all over wanting other stuff added to it

    I know I am in the minority here, but also not alone

    that I would rather sit doing nothing for 80% of the song than play piano on guitar. It just kills any immersion I have.

    No one ever complains about long breaks in other instruments, but once there is a song with little guitar people complain all over wanting other stuff added to it

    We vocalists are used to long breaks. Maybe these guitarists should pick up a mic and gain some patience sometime.

    Whenever I strum the guitar and hear a piano or a saxophone, it takes me out of the experience. I'm not playing guitar in a band, I'm just pressing buttons in a game. Take On Me is fine. It takes a while to get going, but it's fine. Fireflies is fine. There's not a whole lot to do, and there are gaps, but it's spread out enough that it's not too boring to play. I'd rather leave all the guitar charts be (yes, even Grenade) than set a precedent that would ruin all the Billy Joel songs where the guitar takes a break for two seconds, or where every single keyboard solo in the game gets moved to guitar. The Stranger already has a great guitar part. If they moved the intro and outro to guitar, I would never play it again.

    There are a ton of charts from before keyboards where the guitar is just playing a rhythm part, or nothing at all, so I don't see why that's such a crime after keyboards (especially now that the countdown makes those gaps easier to sit through).


  • osteofightosteofight Road Warrior
    Interestingly, in Rocksmith where you're actually playing a guitar, the note trackers sometimes track non-guitar parts. The first half of Baba O'Riley is an example. One especially extreme example is playing along with Freddie Mercury's vocals in Bohemian Rhapsody before the actual guitar kicks in. There is no one best opinion on the issue , but that's a similar developer's stance.
  • Razor_SharkRazor_Shark Opening Act

    Interestingly, in Rocksmith where you're actually playing a guitar, the note trackers sometimes track non-guitar parts. The first half of Baba O'Riley is an example. One especially extreme example is playing along with Freddie Mercury's vocals in Bohemian Rhapsody before the actual guitar kicks in. There is no one best opinion on the issue , but that's a similar developer's stance.

    The yodeling in Hocus Pocus was charted. So ridiculously ridiculous.
  • Whenever I strum the guitar and hear a piano or a saxophone, it takes me out of the experience. I'm not playing guitar in a band, I'm just pressing buttons in a game. Take On Me is fine. It takes a while to get going, but it's fine. Fireflies is fine. There's not a whole lot to do, and there are gaps, but it's spread out enough that it's not too boring to play. I'd rather leave all the guitar charts be (yes, even Grenade) than set a precedent that would ruin all the Billy Joel songs where the guitar takes a break for two seconds, or where every single keyboard solo in the game gets moved to guitar. The Stranger already has a great guitar part. If they moved the intro and outro to guitar, I would never play it again.

    There are a ton of charts from before keyboards where the guitar is just playing a rhythm part, or nothing at all, so I don't see why that's such a crime after keyboards (especially now that the countdown makes those gaps easier to sit through).

    Vocalists play percussion notes during breaks. Even if Percussion notes aren't all that fun it's still doing something, and at the end of the day it's indeed just a video game anyway and charts with keyboard tend to be more fun than without it.
  • Interestingly, in Rocksmith where you're actually playing a guitar, the note trackers sometimes track non-guitar parts. The first half of Baba O'Riley is an example. One especially extreme example is playing along with Freddie Mercury's vocals in Bohemian Rhapsody before the actual guitar kicks in. There is no one best opinion on the issue , but that's a similar developer's stance.

    Rocksmith does have multiple charts though, they usually make there be an alternate lead chart or something like that which gets rid of the non-guitar stuff. Take "Spaceman" by The Killers for example, the lead chart has the synth charted during the verses whereas the rhythm chart is identical to the lead chart except without the synth charted. Rock Band doesn't have that option though.
  • GLaDOSGLaDOS Opening Act
    Sorry I'm a bit late to this, but did we just get confirmation of keys-to-guitar for "Superstition" in the April update?

    This is absolutely amazing
  • LoopyChewLoopyChew Wordsmith
    VolTRH said:

    As it is, guitarists play the rhythm part instead of the crazy, noisy solo. I've got a feeling this was done this way because this was a pro guitar song.

    Not to completely derail the thread again, but I'll point out that Free Bird's first half has GRYBO guitar charted to the solo guitar and Pro Guitar charted to the rhythm guitar.


  • I feel like if a song has actual guitar then don't add anything to it.

    better playability is an opinion. I hate playing piano on guitar, so if they switched it back to the RB2 version I definitely would play it much less

    I feel like if a song has actual guitar then don't add anything to it.

    Yep, only change stuff if there is no guitar. Superstition is fine for being changed because clavichord is more suitable than horns and there's no guitar.

    I know I am in the minority here, but also not alone

    that I would rather sit doing nothing for 80% of the song than play piano on guitar. It just kills any immersion I have.

    No one ever complains about long breaks in other instruments, but once there is a song with little guitar people complain all over wanting other stuff added to it

    I know I am in the minority here, but also not alone

    that I would rather sit doing nothing for 80% of the song than play piano on guitar. It just kills any immersion I have.

    No one ever complains about long breaks in other instruments, but once there is a song with little guitar people complain all over wanting other stuff added to it

    We vocalists are used to long breaks. Maybe these guitarists should pick up a mic and gain some patience sometime.

    Whenever I strum the guitar and hear a piano or a saxophone, it takes me out of the experience. I'm not playing guitar in a band, I'm just pressing buttons in a game. Take On Me is fine. It takes a while to get going, but it's fine. Fireflies is fine. There's not a whole lot to do, and there are gaps, but it's spread out enough that it's not too boring to play. I'd rather leave all the guitar charts be (yes, even Grenade) than set a precedent that would ruin all the Billy Joel songs where the guitar takes a break for two seconds, or where every single keyboard solo in the game gets moved to guitar. The Stranger already has a great guitar part. If they moved the intro and outro to guitar, I would never play it again.

    There are a ton of charts from before keyboards where the guitar is just playing a rhythm part, or nothing at all, so I don't see why that's such a crime after keyboards (especially now that the countdown makes those gaps easier to sit through).


    All of the above are great points, and I totally agree that playing keys parts on guitar kills immersion.. I guess when you're the guitarist for Somebody To Love and you're playing in the same room with a group of friends - it's probably time to pick up another mic for background vocals, cuz you're not doing much otherwise.. And it's always fun to watch your friends jam out..

    I just know in my experience playing that song on RB3 the other day - I don't think I'd ever choose to play it again on guitar by myself.. WAY too much sitting around..
  • ultrakillultrakill Opening Act
    No "Waiting for the End" by Linkin Park?
  • GoshdarnitGoshdarnit Rising Star
    ultrakill said:

    No "Waiting for the End" by Linkin Park?

    I think that one has already been fixed. The list is just songs that hadn't been done up to now.
  • Tom ImpTom Imp Road Warrior
    I personally haven't noticed any issues with any specific song, but kudos to the team for making it so we don't have to download each and every problem song again. :)
  • Meat-PopsicleMeat-Popsicle Road Warrior
    Yeah, Keys make things complicated. Would they have ever thought to map Guitar to Keys, in RB3, for all of the long stretches in many songs that had no keyboard parts? There were a LOT of songs like that, that's part of why they got rid of Keys. Well, people have always wanted to add a rhythm guitar part [like the old Guitar Hero used to do], so why not map rhythm guitar to Keys? Two problems, solved!

    But they never did that. They just let the Keys player sit there, bored. There wasn't even a Beer Timer in RB3, so unless you had the song memorized you couldn't be quite sure how long you would be sitting there with nothing to do. Poor Keys players.

    But now there are no Keys, so we're back to alt-charting to Guitar. If I just pretend that Keys never existed, then I'm totally OK with this. No Keyboard in the game, and no real stringed guitars: we are no longer pretending to have "immersion" in a real rock band. Oh, we still are? As long as the sound that comes out of the "guitar" accessory is that of a guitar? Well, OK, I wouldn't want to ruin your fun by changing that. Except: now I have a super-boring guitar part to play. And long stretches of silence. On just a very few songs! But those are the songs that give people a chance to get trophies! How else would I get Crimson Stars on Guitar if not for "Terrible Lie"?

    You're right, it's unsolvable. If you try to make one group happy, everyone else will have their version of the game "ruined". And vice versa.
  • Yeah, Keys make things complicated. Would they have ever thought to map Guitar to Keys, in RB3, for all of the long stretches in many songs that had no keyboard parts? There were a LOT of songs like that, that's part of why they got rid of Keys. Well, people have always wanted to add a rhythm guitar part [like the old Guitar Hero used to do], so why not map rhythm guitar to Keys? Two problems, solved!

    But they never did that. They just let the Keys player sit there, bored. There wasn't even a Beer Timer in RB3, so unless you had the song memorized you couldn't be quite sure how long you would be sitting there with nothing to do. Poor Keys players.

    But now there are no Keys, so we're back to alt-charting to Guitar. If I just pretend that Keys never existed, then I'm totally OK with this. No Keyboard in the game, and no real stringed guitars: we are no longer pretending to have "immersion" in a real rock band. Oh, we still are? As long as the sound that comes out of the "guitar" accessory is that of a guitar? Well, OK, I wouldn't want to ruin your fun by changing that. Except: now I have a super-boring guitar part to play. And long stretches of silence. On just a very few songs! But those are the songs that give people a chance to get trophies! How else would I get Crimson Stars on Guitar if not for "Terrible Lie"?

    You're right, it's unsolvable. If you try to make one group happy, everyone else will have their version of the game "ruined". And vice versa.

    Unless of course they simply added a toggle option for the songs in question:

    __ Guitar used for key parts and guitar

    _X_ Guitar use for guitar parts only


    Truly I doubt there are too many songs that warrant such an option, but it sure would be nice for those few songs..
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