How is skill calculated???

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  • gaiacat said:

    @AndyTheIndigoer - I understand what u are saying and at your skill level you do better on hard than on expert. You have the same situation I have on guitar. I'm good enough to get 100% on hard, but not good enough to keep the streak going on expert to beat my hard score.

    Whoops... I think I realized where the misunderstanding was, and why we don't agree on how HMX calculates skill.

    It's easy to score higher on hard than expert often times, I can't argue with that.

    Imagine that you never tried to play the track on hard.

    Then you'd get those tasty expert stars for the time you played on expert. Your guitar rating would be closer to 900 than it would be to 700.

    But too bad, your hard score is higher, so you get punished with the lower rating.

    If that's how things truly work, then there's a usability bug in the system. Either that or people who experiment on different levels deserve to be punished.
  • I don't know if I agree that it's a bug. More of an incentive to get better and to not stray too far out of your actual playing skill. And as far as experimenting on different levels... just exit before the end of the song if you're completely flopping. You're out of your league at that point anyway. Obviously if this is in the middle of an online quick play, this is not an ideal solution. But then again, you probably shouldn't be experimenting when playing online with a and band anyway.

    I would also ask a question in return... What's the alternative to taking the higher score regardless of difficulty? There would be just as many issues with always going with the highest difficulty completed. Would you really want your Skill impacted by a 3 star rating on Expert even though you can gold star it on Hard?
  • I don't know if I agree that it's a bug. More of an incentive to get better and to not stray too far out of your actual playing skill.

    Regrettably, I didn't have the prescience to exit out of songs I was 'only doing 5*H on' a year ago in order to prepare for a new rating system that would dock me for doing 5*H full combo over 4*X... and I admit that I've backed out of songs that I was only doing 4*X on so that I could do a 5* full combo with hard. I have to admit I screwed my own skill rating in 200 different ways by doing that, honestly. Sadly I couldn't predict the future and paid for it dearly.

    I wouldn't mind taking it on the Otherside with respect to score to be honest. If only I was told that my skill -- the only thing that's broadcast to everybody -- would do similarly if I tried to do better with my score. There was no warning that I'd risk my skill rating by (overall) almost 100 points if I did better on hard with this song than I did on expert. That's a pretty nasty unexpected difference, and I have to admit that I made a huge strategic error in ignoring the issue.

    Imagine if they came up with a new skill rating system that valued score only and forced it upon us by surprise. I'd rocket to 900+ while I don't even want to know where most others would go.

    Maybe in the end, I need to value my top 300 disc song score and my top 100 all stars earned scores. And that's all my current account will have to value.

    [still sorely jealous at his alter ego's account, who played tracks according to the new skill rules]
  • @thatmarkguy -- We can all dream, right? :disappointed:
  • Skill rating is pretty meaningless right now for two reasons.

    1) The Hard skill calculation that Andy brought up. People who played on Hard are severely under valued, when they can 5 star expert stuff, but don't get credit for it because it doesn't beat there high score.

    2) People are deleting songs they did bad on or creating alternate accounts with only songs they are good at. I've been looking at some peoples stats and each time I look their skill ratings go up and their songs owned goes down.

    It took me awhile to figure out these issues. When Rivals first came out I was all excited to see what my skill ranking would be. Thought it was going to be huge, because I was a Top 100 vocalist on Xbox according to RB4 Store. Then it got calculated and it was a whopping 865. What a disappointment.

    Then I would play songs and beat all these people rated 930+. And then I figured out its because I had played a ton of songs on Hard after the leaderboard wipe. I did that just to put up good scores on the leaderboard on one take, because I can do well on Hard in my sleep.

    It's even hard to find what songs to do because they show as expert 5 stars on my screen. You have to go in and check the leaderboard on each one and see if it is showing a Hard score as highest. And at over 1300 songs that is not something I feel like doing.

    I have got the score up to 911, but it is a very slow process.

    I think That Mark Guy has a good solution and it should be implemented...
  • edited March 2017
    @nystargate -- I know, right?!?! My 900+ rated vox friends get pummeled by me (with taunts) with both of us on expert all the time (most of them think I'm rated as high as they are and are pretty surprised to find out I'm only at 755 due to some bad RB4 life choices).

    But because they played the tracks with 4 or low 5* expert scores and I played the same on hard, they're rewarded and I'm (rather we are) punished.

    The world is sad, I swear. :disappointed:

    ETA

    E - X - P - E - R - T ---
    Too bad you didn't sing it
    But if you sang along
    to a hard level song
    you'll be per-ma-nent-ly
    fcked with your rating...
  • thatmarkguythatmarkguy Road Warrior
    edited March 2017

    2) People are deleting songs they did bad on ... I've been looking at some peoples stats and each time I look their skill ratings go up and their songs owned goes down.

    Uhm... you can't 'delete' songs from the leaderboards. Deleting them from your local hard drive (on the platform where you can do that, you can't on PS4 short of a full removal of the entire install and all DLC) doesn't remove your score from the leaderboard or affect your "Songs Owned" count (which is by-design based on your store entitlements - it's not doing that very well, but it sure isn't asking your local machine what you've got installed!)

    Nobody can deliberately make their songs-owned go down (except, perhaps, with a disputed-ownership claim with the first party store resulting in the removal of a purchase from your account rights - and even that wouldn't remove a leaderboard instance). If you've seen it go down on people's account, that's because HMX has been attempting to fix the songs-owned counter (and that's clearly been a struggle...)

    (Edit: actually, I'm not sure if maybe track-delisting causes count to go down too. If the items no longer have store entities visible in this gen's store they might fall off the count. We haven't actually had any delistings since Rivals launched though - first one is coming soon.)


    People may be choosing not to even play songs this gen they know will damage their skill (I do not intend to log a play on Fly Like An Eagle anytime soon...), or quitting a song just before finishing a play that would've logged a damaging score, but they aren't 'deleting songs'. Part of Andy's concern here is that he wishes he could delete leaderboard instances of songs he has high-hard-5star scores on, so he could get a lower (but better-skill-contribution) expert score to log as his leaderboard entry. But he can't. Nobody can.
  • Well I can't be sure, but if people are not deleting songs (and if deleting them wouldn't help as you say) then there is one pretty big bug going around on the Xbox with songs owned display. I was following 2 people and when I initially compared myself to them weeks ago it said we all had over 1300 songs which seemed correct or at least close. Last time I checked mine was still showing accurately as 1300+, but the others were down to 78 and 800. And their skill level jumped up a ton.

    A songs owned total bug could be the answer as you say. And it could be coincidental that they improved their songs a lot recently.

    Its just odd in that my total songs owned number is fairly stable and in the realm of possibility while the other ones I look at are varying wildly and so far always going down and clearly wrong.
  • thatmarkguythatmarkguy Road Warrior
    edited March 2017
    78 would be "No DLC recognized". That's the 65 RB4 on disc + 12 from the postRivals patch + SOMP from the SOMP patch.

    My songs owned has never been close to right. It's changed spontaneously a few times though. My game playables list is at 807 songs right now, of which 3 are owned by another account homed to the same console. It probably should be counting RB1 Export Tom Sawyer even though I never actually downloaded it, and it maybe should be counting entitlement issue tracks like The Broken, and I have no idea if it should be counting this-gen-delisted songs I've downloaded before delist, or not-yet-existing-this-gen delisteds I am entitled to. But I expect whatever its 'right' number is, it should be near 800, give or take a few dozen.

    Last time I checked before today, it was counting me somewhere in the 370 range.

    I checked today - it has me at 78.
  • OK, so that proves I was wrong about people deleting songs.

    I still think the Skill calculation is unfair to people who played songs on Hard. I had one song I was playing and I got Gold and still didn't beat my hard score. Don't remember the song, but I was able to get a higher Gold star and wipe out the Hard score on my next try.

    It's not fair that we have such a higher bar to clear score wise when we are playing the exact same song and difficulty as other people.
  • LordFlatusLordFlatus Rising Star
    I sure am glad I play for fun, play the songs I want to play, and look at my resultant calculated skill level without expectation.
  • ChezButterChezButter Unsigned
    edited March 2017
    I agree on TMG's solution. I do have one 5*H that I can 5*Expert, but I'm not yet getting a higher score. I'm going to take it in to the trainer so that I can get 1 point more than hard to move it to an expert score. I can only imagine the effort needed if I had 50 of those instead.

    Simply: take a lower score if you can achieve the same star count at a higher tier. I don't think that would be too much of a reach.

    TMG - on your latest post, did you hold down blue and change "select song source"? That can cause wild swings in song count if things are deselected.

    Edit: NVM - I think I get the context now. I'll have a look at mine as well...

    -CB
  • thatmarkguythatmarkguy Road Warrior
    The "Songs Owned" being talked about is what is shown in the Rivals Companion App, and the My Stats page of Career in-game.


    I have 6 songs where my best score is hard, but only one of them have I actually been able to 5star on expert. I usually won't resort to playing a song at hard unless I am unable to get more than 3 stars at expert (the sole exception is At Night In Dreams which I can 5* either way but did better on hard for spotlight contribution one rivals week). But I am glad I went through my Hard-to-Expert graduation last gen, because there would be many many more if Hard was ever my default difficulty this gen.

  • There is no such thing as a gold star on hard.

    Ha! That's funny... Just goes to show you how long it's been since I've played on Hard difficulty. Pretty sure it was back in the RB1 days with the good old plastic kick pedal.

  • I sure am glad I play for fun, play the songs I want to play, and look at my resultant calculated skill level without expectation.

    Basically, skill rating as it's cooked up now doesn't matter. ^^^ The man is legit.
  • edited March 2017
    In more random news, I used the formulas given by one of our fellow forum members (he can identify himself if he wants because I won't stick words -- or numbers for that matter -- into anybody's mouth) to calculate the hazard of playing hard versus expert.

    Blue cells indicate better to play the song on hard, and it's dependent upon the stars you get. Might or might not make sense, and is probably a good reason I shouldn't be using the same template I created for researching medical problems people talk about over social media.


  • thatmarkguythatmarkguy Road Warrior
    edited March 2017
    Yeah, I really am not confident in my Hard numbers below 5-star. Or my Expert numbers below 3-star, for that matter.

    But I think your basic math checks out. In a nutshell: if you're a 5starX on everything player, you don't GS anything but you 5star everything on expert, if all your logged high scores are at expert, your skill is around 883.

    If you're that exact same player who has logged those exact same scores at expert, but you're also perfect on hard and your 5starH scores are higher than your 5starX scores, and you've played every song on both hard and expert, then your skill measure will be more like 707.
  • edited March 2017
    @thatmarkguy - 707 is the exact same number I found for all 5*H and was 883 the same for all 5*X.

    My alter ego's score is only 5 points off your estimate (I would try and compute my own score but that's 390 songs worth of data entry pain).

    But as we've all said, 707 is also the same as what someone would get for doing everything on 5*X... and making the regrettable choice to do everything on 5*H as well, if the latter gave a higher score, which it almost always can, in theory. :disappointed:
  • MaxRenn82MaxRenn82 Opening Act
    edited April 2017
    I was pretty certain it relied heavily on the disc songs vs. DLC, but am pretty much stuck at 999 even though I've full combo/FC'd every single RB4 disc song on Expert, still 999. I have 1,025 Expert FC's in total out of my 1,400 total songs now, with only about 250-300 unplayed still. And the remaining I've played are all gold starred at 98-99% (the odd 96% on those phrase-lite songs), still 999. Ranked like #55 on disc song scores for vocals too on Xbox One, and still lower skill than some friends that have played enough to get like 2 million points and THEY are skill level 1,000. Pretty confusing, but I've done pretty much all I know to do.

    At this point I've just been playing all my unplayed stuff that is available in the Rival's weekly challenges till I get them all played, and grind the crap outta the disc songs to get better overall scores, but pretty annoying to not know why it isn't moving.
  • MaxRenn82MaxRenn82 Opening Act
    Oh, and also went back and played the few songs I actually played before all the leaderboard wipes, so I know THAT isn't the issue. ;)
  • MaxRenn82 said:

    Oh, and also went back and played the few songs I actually played before all the leaderboard wipes, so I know THAT isn't the issue. ;)

    I'm only speaking on behalf of myself here, but I personally believe that @thatmarkguy has the right formula... meaning that you can't get 1000 until you *gold star* **everything**.

    Gold star means doing a minimum of ~140% of the lowest possible expert high score on every track. 100% on expert doesn't mean gold stars because the mechanics do allow full combos to fall short, especially when squeezing/pathing was bad (I know by experience, my vox score on "Smells Like Teen Spirit" beat out a lot of 100% experts... and yet neither I nor they have gold stars. :disappointed: )
  • thatmarkguythatmarkguy Road Warrior
    Disc vs nondisc does not matter.

    Total score or songs played does not matter. You can get 1000 skill on as few as seven songs played.

    Percentage does not matter.

    Playing songs you've never played before will not help you get from 999 to 1000.


    If every song you've posted a current leaderboard score for, has a GS leaderboard score, and you've played at least one song at each tier, you have a 1000 skill. If you don't have 1000 skill, then at least one score that your account has as its leaderboard entry was non-GS. This might be a genuine pain to track down if that song (for reasons) has a GS score on your local song list.

    Some song you have played, and currently have a score on the leaderboards, has a sub-GS score as your leaderboard score. If you find it and fix it, you'll get to 1000.
  • The "Songs Owned" being talked about is what is shown in the Rivals Companion App, and the My Stats page of Career in-game.

    The app claims I own 89 songs now, whereas the in game and quickplay total shows close to 2000. I would say the app is widely inaccurate about these things.

    Honestly I don't care about the skill rating. It doesn't mean much. I have a 1000 skill rating on vocals, but my friend who is much better than I am (scorewise) has a lower rating. The rating is meaningless. It does keep me on my toes to maintain gold stars though when I am singing.

  • thatmarkguythatmarkguy Road Warrior
    My app was showing 89 for me for a few months there. Now it's showing 385. Still less than half of what it should be showing, but at least it is once again detecting me as having more-than-just-the-RB4-and-Rivals-songs.
  • Edify1Edify1 Rising Star
    What I'm getting from this conversation is that I shouldn't bother trying to get to 1,000 skill points. I'll just forever sit on my 992 skill on bass and 978 on guitar.
  • thatmarkguythatmarkguy Road Warrior
    Note that they have changed their rounding rules since this thread was last active. Now they actually round above 999.5 up to 1000. Which means you can get 1000 now even with one, or even a small handful of, sub-GS songs.
  • rkbdgurlrkbdgurl Road Warrior
    I never have to worry about that. I'll never get 999.5 or 1000. :p
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