Leaderboards/Rivals Leaderboards are Broken…

VladTepzVladTepz Unsigned
edited June 21 in Rock Band Rivals
First off, excuse the rant. If there was a better way to, (possibly), get the attention of HMX and the Community, I’d use it, or if anyone knows of a better way, let me know. Social media just seems like the best way to get their attention from past results…

As many of you know, there is a random number associated to every individual & crew. This random number is used in the case of leaderboard/rivals leaderboard ties…

For those that didn’t know, yes, it’s correct, the reason you may not be in the top 10, top 100, top 1000, your crew didn’t get promoted, your crew received less rivals points than it should, etc…, Is because of a random number you have absolutely no control of…
Worst part, that person(s)/crew(s) that are higher than you on the leaderboards because of a tie, for no other reason than a random number, will always be higher than you on the leaderboards in case of a tie.

I can think of no other game/instance anywhere, where leaderboard positions may be decided random number…

This issue is even worse in Rivals, where overall position determines Rewards, Points, Etc…

Example:
Let's say Crew A & Crew B end up in Bloodstone at the end of the season, but can be applied to any tier during any challenge
  • Crew A ends in position 1 on Spotlight & 2 on XP
  • Crew B ends in position 2 on Spotlight & 1 on XP
Both crews have an overall position of 3

Crew B just need to maintain a tie or better to be first overall.
Crew A needs to work 2x as hard as Crew B, and get a 1/1 position to be first overall because of a random number...

This sorta reminds me of the Cal Pathing issue, it’s an issue that affects everyone, has always been there, but unfortunately, only a few are actually aware it exists…

So instead of just ranting, I’m proposing solutions, and would love to hear feedback and other solution ideas, in the hope that this issue is fixed someday.

Personally, I believe the fairest solution would be to award all ties the same, highest, position.
Leaderboards would look like this:
  • Player A - Score 100 - 1st
  • Player B - Score 100 - 1st
  • Player C - Score 100 - 1st
  • Player D - Score 99 - 4th
  • Player E - Score 99 - 4th
  • Player F - Score 98 - 6th
  • Player G - Score 97 - 7th
For Rivals, they could do the same thing, or use/implement any 3rd factor to settle ties instead of a random number.
  • Both Crews get same rewards/points/promotion ( as mentioned above)
  • Tie goes to the Crew that gets the most badges that week.
  • Tie goes to the Crew with the highest Spotlight.
  • Tie goes to the Crew with the highest XP.
  • Implement a 3rd data point (though while making ties less likely, they would still be possible)
  • Anything that doesn’t come down to a Randomly generated number assigned to your Crew…
Well that’s the end of my rant & my effort to get this knowledge out. I think HMX has done a decent job so far trying to fix all the bugs/issues, and I know there are still a lot of higher priority bugs/issues out there right now, but I will say, oddly enough, this issue has been in the game the longest and has gone largely unnoticed or has been kept on the back burner.

Agree, Disagree, Share your thoughts, it’s all good...

Comments

  • twistedoaktwistedoak Unsigned
    Food for thought....

    On xbox one:


    Last night the crew that got an overall 1st place badge is not 1st place in the rivals scoreboard.

    The crew that got an overall 2nd place badge (which was actually a tie for 1st) is now 15th on the rivals scoreboard for the season.

    I didn't check third place, but I would bet all of Harmonix's jobs that the 3rd place badge is not reflected as 3rd place overall on the rivals leaderboards.

    There is a 32 way tie for 1st place right now for season one (32 crews with 100 rival points), but rather than 32 1st places, there are 32 different places assigned that have no relation to the way that they actually placed in bronze according to the spotlight and xp leaderboards.

    Broken? Yup.


    Please please please consider removing this asinine notion of a random number assigned when the crew started to determine position. The post above has some excellent suggestions on a more fair way to assign place value in the event of a tie.

    I think of it this way, in any sport or competition out there where there is a tie for 1st, both people get the medal for 1st place. They don't play rock paper scissors or some similar game of chance to see who got first. It's ludicrous to have a notion of chance to determine place value.
  • VladTepzVladTepz Unsigned
    Yup absolutely right.. How is this possible in the first week of Season 01?






  • LordFlatusLordFlatus Rising Star
    I always liked ties for 1st on the leaderboards. Seriously.
  • twistedoaktwistedoak Unsigned
    Any official response to this? This is one issue that I think everyone who has posted (including the other forums on that other site) agrees with. I haven't seen one response from anyone saying "Yeah, random numbers are totally fair, don't change it up".

    How about it @HMXOwl ?

    This is what has bugged me about the current generation of Harmonix... no response, nothing. Not a "We'll discuss it at the next meeting", "We'll look into it", or even a "I like random numbers and don't care what bothers our fanbase". Can we get a response from someone who is in media relations (or other)?
  • "Maybe if we ignore it, it will go away" -HMX
  • It's on Net Team's list.
  • VladTepzVladTepz Unsigned
    HMXOwl said:

    It's on Net Team's list.

    Thank you for the reply & acknowledgement that it's being looked into.
  • edited June 23
    VladTepz said:

    HMXOwl said:

    It's on Net Team's list.

    Thank you for the reply & acknowledgement that it's being looked into.
    I wouldn't say it's being looked into. It's just on their list. As Josh said in your Reddit post, it's been passed along to the team, but they've got eight billion other items on their plate already. We're not committing to any timeframe or change or anything, it's just noted so far.
  • VladTepzVladTepz Unsigned
    edited June 23
    HMXOwl said:

    VladTepz said:

    HMXOwl said:

    It's on Net Team's list.

    Thank you for the reply & acknowledgement that it's being looked into.
    I wouldn't say it's being looked into. It's just on their list. As Josh said in your Reddit post, it's been passed along to the team, but they've got eight billion other items on their plate already. We're not committing to any timeframe or change or anything, it's just noted so far.
    Josh actually replied to somebody else on the reddit post, in which the guy he replied to actually deleted his comment, so I took it as Josh passing along the info of the deleted comment, thx for clearing that up.

    Noted is fine, for now..., But I'm willing to bet, if this doesn't get changed from Noted, to being looked into, near the time season 01 ends and if there are Ties screwing crews over, like it has been since the beginning of rivals, you're going to have some very unhappy crews...

    Understandably, there are more pressing issues for you guys to look into currently, just don't underestimate how the community feels about this issue. It has been discussed frequently since Rivals came out, it's unnecessary, unfair, and unheard of, having random numbers determine the placement on leaderboards, who gets Badges, Rivals Points, and Overall Position, but we all have been living with it patiently while you guys had bigger fish to fry.

    You are now giving out rewards, more people are paying attention and participating in Rivals, figured now is the time to inform the unknowing.

    Until then, my Crew will be working 2x as hard, because we have to, since unfortunately we got handed a really bad random number, It wouldn't surprise me if 95% of our 2nd overall badges are due to Ties... Makes me wonder what our Crews overall Rival Points should be...
  • Gotta love the customer friendly tone (not) in the responses from HMWOwl. I fully concur with a previous post regarding the current HMX community management regime; little or no feedback/answers and when it comes it's snarky. It was a shame Crisis was laid off, she was polite, understanding and responsive, Owl appears to be the opposite in every respect. My personal experience with him is that he is arrogant, condescending and abrupt, but of course he really doesn't care about what his customers think, he is more interested in himself. Having said that I will give a shout out to HMXJosh with whom I have had excellent experience. I for one, would welcome him back to these boards.
  • VladTepz said:

    HMXOwl said:

    VladTepz said:

    HMXOwl said:

    It's on Net Team's list.

    Thank you for the reply & acknowledgement that it's being looked into.
    I wouldn't say it's being looked into. It's just on their list. As Josh said in your Reddit post, it's been passed along to the team, but they've got eight billion other items on their plate already. We're not committing to any timeframe or change or anything, it's just noted so far.
    Understandably, there are more pressing issues for you guys to look into currently, just don't underestimate how the community feels about this issue. It has been discussed frequently since Rivals came out, it's unnecessary, unfair, and unheard of, having random numbers determine the placement on leaderboards, who gets Badges, Rivals Points, and Overall Position, but we all have been living with it patiently while you guys had bigger fish to fry.
    Would love nothing more, but all Community can do is state a case, we don't get to steer the ship, ya know? I wasn't plucked out of the core community because I DIDN'T care about the core community, I'm virtually always the voice of what the internet wants, but online communities are always a small fraction of total users. We do what we can!
  • Gotta love the customer friendly tone (not) in the responses from HMWOwl. I fully concur with a previous post regarding the current HMX community management regime; little or no feedback/answers and when it comes it's snarky. It was a shame Crisis was laid off, she was polite, understanding and responsive, Owl appears to be the opposite in every respect. My personal experience with him is that he is arrogant, condescending and abrupt, but of course he really doesn't care about what his customers think, he is more interested in himself. Having said that I will give a shout out to HMXJosh with whom I have had excellent experience. I for one, would welcome him back to these boards.

    I agree, it was a shame that HMXCrisis was laid off and that HMXJosh is welcome to return to the boards.

    I disagree with everything else.

    "Snark" is not always intended, but may still be perceived...
  • rkbdgurlrkbdgurl Road Warrior
    I don't think owls are given to strong emotions. I think they appear indifferent to humans in the same way cats are. It's nothing personal. Our owl is all wise in everything Rock Band. If there were an answer, he would provide it. But don't go expecting him to get all touchy feely about it. Never has, never will. :p
  • twistedoaktwistedoak Unsigned
    I appreciate that it is at least on someone's radar, but is there anyway to show the importance of this?

    If you have a competition (it IS called Rock band RIVALS for Gods sakes), you need to have a fair way of judging the competition. We might as well just pick a number between 1 and 1000 at the first week and award prizes to the top 3 if all it comes down to is a random number at the end anyways.

    I'm not a coder and am not sure how hard it is to rewrite code, but is it really that difficult to change the algorithm to make several 1st places in the event of a tie? Does it really take that much manpower and work to change something so simple?
  • VladTepzVladTepz Unsigned
    edited June 25
    Honestly, my biggest concern is that the one(s) "steering the ship" at HMX don't consider this an issue at all.
    Especially, since it was strongly differentiated that it was "Noted" and NOT actively "being looked into".

    This is the way they set it up, it's working as intended, therefore, it's not broken & doesn't need to be fixed.
    Which is technically accurate, but really...

    I mean, it's not a "huge" deal for the regular leaderboards, but for Rivals, it's a pretty big deal giving artificial advantages to some crews over others.

    I know that this has, at least, been on the radar of some HMX employees since the beginning of Rivals. Even rumors of a retroactive fix to give badges & points to crews that were denied to them because of ties.

    It's been around 8 months I've/we've been waiting, though I concede, there were/are more pressing issues that deserved more priority attention from HMX.

    "online communities are always a small fraction of total users"
    This is very true, but the way I see it, these online communities are the voice of those that can't/don't speak out.
  • KickingguruKickingguru Unsigned
    This is only an issue in the lower rungs of the leaderboard.. Bronze, silver, ect. Once the pool starts to downsize, then the places will be correct and very few ties if any will occur. The overal points is given and that will add up over the next six weeks. The only issue is the badge received for bronze or silver.... Sorry... rant is a bit much for this issue...
  • VladTepzVladTepz Unsigned

    This is only an issue in the lower rungs of the leaderboard.. Bronze, silver, ect. Once the pool starts to downsize, then the places will be correct and very few ties if any will occur. The overal points is given and that will add up over the next six weeks. The only issue is the badge received for bronze or silver.... Sorry... rant is a bit much for this issue...

    That's what you would think right? Unfortunately, it's even more common in the top 10 of each tier, where you have the more hard core crews battling it out.

    It wouldn't surprise me if before seasons, 50% of the time, 1st, 2nd, or 3rd place was a Tie & some crew(s) got screwed. At least that was what it was like in Bloodstone since the beginning...

    BTW, last challenge, our crew got 2nd overall because of a Tie, in which we lost 1st because of our random number...
  • KickingguruKickingguru Unsigned
    That is due to being in bronze where several thouand are a part... once the tiers get to platinum or diamond, ties are much less and the top is the top...
  • twistedoaktwistedoak Unsigned
    edited June 27
    I'm on a crew where this has happened in Bloodstone several times. We have been denied a first place tie due to a crappy randomized system way too many times for it to be trivial. My crew literally has to work 2x harder than other crews to get a first place badge.

    If you compare the top crews at silver right now to those who finished in bloodstone in season 0, they are the same. Nothing has changed except the name "season 1" and the fact that everyone reset at bronze. The top crews are still at the top of the boards, and the same damn situation happens over and over again. The issues that we had at bloodstone happened at bronze, will happen again at silver, gold, diamond, etc. This is something that will never go away for my crew unless something is changed.

    I'm sorry, but it doesn't work. Ties happen in any tier, and especially happened at the top where it's been thinned out. You will not see any ties whatsoever in a week or two at the lower tiers because those crews are barely active. You can just about breathe correctly and get a star and get a first place in bronze in about two weeks.
  • bandaddybandaddy Rising Star

    Gotta love the customer friendly tone (not) in the responses from HMWOwl. I fully concur with a previous post regarding the current HMX community management regime; little or no feedback/answers and when it comes it's snarky. It was a shame Crisis was laid off, she was polite, understanding and responsive, Owl appears to be the opposite in every respect. My personal experience with him is that he is arrogant, condescending and abrupt, but of course he really doesn't care about what his customers think, he is more interested in himself. Having said that I will give a shout out to HMXJosh with whom I have had excellent experience. I for one, would welcome him back to these boards.

    I agree 110%
  • KalypsoKalypso Unsigned
    I just ran into this, this Bloodstone week everyone is tying on vocals on Clint Eastwood and my 'assigned random number' is a problem.
  • edited July 20
    Would anyone see a problem with ties going to the higher total (crew xp + spotlight score). I don't know that ties should suddenly start being a thing, and maybe if people can agree on something it will be implemented faster.
  • VladTepzVladTepz Unsigned
    I don't think anyone would have an issue with ties being determined by anything that's not something that is totally random...
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