How much do you think the skill system needs to be reworked?

1
edited November 26 in Rock Band
Please give feedback on the changes you would like to see in the comments (if any)!

How much do you think the skill system needs to be reworked? 53 votes

The skill system needs a complete overhaul.
9%
olddrummerLeCH24mesabassmannystargateTURLEYZINFANDEL 5 votes
The skill system needs some changes.
30%
OakTeaMistressDeviantthewickedchildCountWaescheNideckerAnacondaZenzukiFrozenMorbygaiacatdjb5f1IamtheplagueKITTYCATALERTRaymono100NYB100korndog81derekhall 16 votes
The skill system needs some minor tweaks.
24%
WingsOfSteelDesvergerWoodenGloryJadioujoseph5185grumblevolcanoRagingRoach67MACINBLACKtnevakerMacM0le81patl175Wildcat22heinrisn 13 votes
The skill system is fine the way it is.
9%
LordFlatusCasto21firedoom666LegoyodaxFritzyKatz 5 votes
The skill system needs to be removed.
1%
SirPuttsAlot 1 vote
I don't care about the skill system one way or another.
24%
tdc002ekffazrwh1t3kn1teZigZag2005twistedoakLord_MhoramEmalytheMeat-PopsicleTheMuralsbrookfieldworldorderHerdULiek2015debesten11BrewChap 13 votes

Comments

  • The skill system needs some changes.
    Personally I would like to see a change that includes all songs in your library (meaning unplayed ones too) into your skill rating. That way, it would force people to have true rankings and not just sit on a few gold stars on an instrument they may not deserve such a high skill level in.

    Another change I would like to see is basing the skill ranking off of a combination of percentage and star rating rather than just stars. More specifically, I would like to see it so that gold stars on every song only gets you to say 950 skill or something like that, but to do better than that you need high percentages in songs. For 1000, I think it's only fair to give that to players with FC's in the majority of their songs (weighted the more the difficult the song is).

    Of course, it might be interesting to make it so that you could only get 1000 if you FC every song, but I'm in the camp of that's a bit too harsh. Still, if that were the case, it would be a ranking to truly admire. :p
  • The skill system needs some minor tweaks.
    The only changes I think the skill system needs is pretty much what has already been mentioned by @nystargate. Higher difficulties should always be given credit over lower difficulties when the star rank is equal or higher irrelevant of score. Expert 5 stars and gold stars should always be given credit over hard 5 stars for example.
  • Meat-PopsicleMeat-Popsicle Road Warrior
    I don't care about the skill system one way or another.
    I find it vaguely disappointing that I'll never get that "900 skill rating" trophy. But that's my own fault for not being talented enough. Even after 10 years of practicing? Yep.

    The game is hard. Not everyone is capable of playing at an elite level. It's easy for you? Well that's great. Bask in the glory.
  • Meat-PopsicleMeat-Popsicle Road Warrior
    I don't care about the skill system one way or another.
    I understand that some people care deeply about specific features. Enough that the game is ruined for them if a specific feature doesn't work exactly the way that their brain tells them is the "right way".
  • I sort of quit caring about my skill rating once I got the trophies for it. It just feels really useless (no rewards for hitting certain milestones etc.) and a number I'm assuming most don't even look at.
  • The skill system is fine the way it is.
    I don't see any problems with the skill rating system
  • thatmarkguythatmarkguy Road Warrior
    Tweaks. Fix the worse-score-higher-difficulty problem, perhaps institute a minimum scores per tier for leaderboard eligibility.

    Your suggestion - making it so that all GSes only award 950 - is absurd. If anything the top could stand to be more lenient, not less. As it is the top 5% of the range only includes the top 1% of players. Yours would make it more like 0.1%.
  • The skill system needs some changes.

    Tweaks. Your suggestion - making it so that all GSes only award 950 - is absurd. If anything the top could stand to be more lenient, not less. As it is the top 5% of the range only includes the top 1% of players. Yours would make it more like 0.1%.

    More lenient? Right now you can get 1000 skill by gold-starring one song in each tier, with an instrument you don't regularly play, and never playing the instrument again. That's insanely unfair to the people who regularly play that instrument.

    As for the fundamentals of what you're talking about, it really comes down to what you think actual skill numbers should represent. In my opinion, a perfect 1000, should represent exactly that, true mastery of the game. Whether a large percentage of the player base fall into that range is irrelevant because the skill ranking should represent exactly what it's saying. If you have two players both with the highest possible skill rank but one who is miles better than another, then what's the point in even having a skill ranking system?

    P.S. I would appreciate it if you didn't call my suggestions absurd. Everyone here deserves to voice their opinion without being ridiculed.
  • The skill system needs some minor tweaks.
    @Iamtheplague Your idea has bigger problems, the concept that it's easier to get 1000 skill if you own no DLC.
  • The skill system needs some changes.
    I'm a little frustrated with the vocal system to be honest. I'm confused how my stats can be better than a friend's whose skill is 1000 and mine is stuck at 982. Maybe it's just how I suck at math, but I'd like the formula to be easier for math-tards like me to understand. There's a reason I'm an artist.
  • Personally I would like to see a change that includes all songs in your library (meaning unplayed ones too) into your skill rating. That way, it would force people to have true rankings and not just sit on a few gold stars on an instrument they may not deserve such a high skill level in.

    See, that's come up a few times, but it hits several snags.

    What defines what's in my library? If it's what's on my harddrive, then I can delete things. Now I'm having a worse play experience (deleting songs I may like/want to play) in order to massage the Skill number. That's not beneficial to anyone of any skill. Now you might be thinking, "Just tie the app count to your profile and never let it go down," but the count comes from...scanning your storage device. Which means you can screw yourself if you move your profile to someone else's box. Little Timmy had impressive Skill until he went to play at a party and now his game demands he buys 80 more songs to drag his number back up. Or even worse, he knows someone like me who owns everything and now there's a song quantity he literally cannot reach with available content.

    Can definitely see where it would be more accurate in isolation, but I can't see anywhere where the change improves experiences.
  • gaiacatgaiacat Unsigned
    edited November 27
    The skill system needs some changes.

    I'm a little frustrated with the vocal system to be honest. I'm confused how my stats can be better than a friend's whose skill is 1000 and mine is stuck at 982. Maybe it's just how I suck at math, but I'd like the formula to be easier for math-tards like me to understand. There's a reason I'm an artist.

    Hey Mistress D! All you have to do is gold star every song you have played. If you sort by stars and only have gold stars, you will need to look on the leaderboard of each blank star song to see if you have a score registered but not displaying that you played it. (if you don't have a score it will show you the top scores.)

    I recently played a song and passed you really early in the song- that could be one of your hidden ones.
    We used to be able to use http://rb4scores.com/ to check for hidden songs - but it's not working.
    If you ever played rockband on a different console - the score will not be visible on your console. I hope this helps!!
  • The skill system needs some changes.
    HMXOwl said:

    See, that's come up a few times, but it hits several snags.

    What defines what's in my library? If it's what's on my harddrive, then I can delete things. Now I'm having a worse play experience (deleting songs I may like/want to play) in order to massage the Skill number. That's not beneficial to anyone of any skill. Now you might be thinking, "Just tie the app count to your profile and never let it go down," but the count comes from...scanning your storage device. Which means you can screw yourself if you move your profile to someone else's box. Little Timmy had impressive Skill until he went to play at a party and now his game demands he buys 80 more songs to drag his number back up. Or even worse, he knows someone like me who owns everything and now there's a song quantity he literally cannot reach with available content.

    Can definitely see where it would be more accurate in isolation, but I can't see anywhere where the change improves experiences.

    That's some very interesting information. Thank you for that. However, I'm not sure how having unplayed songs affects the second part of your explanation. The first part I get, but wouldn't your skill also change under the current system if you moved to another box with a different library (for example, if right now you had 80 Gold Stars and you moved to a library with only 60 Gold Stars). If not, then why (since you said the count comes from scanning the storage device)? Also, couldn't you also alter your skill now by deleting songs with bad scores?

    I'm also interested in your idea of experience vs. accuracy. I may be totally, completely wrong, but my guess is that most people who are even looking at/are interested in their skill ranking are the kind of people who are also looking to improve that number. I would argue that it would be in the best interest of anyone looking to improve their skill, that that skill measure is an accurate and fair measure. The accurate part is what my first idea tries to address (which I feel the current system is struggling with). The fairness of the measure is what I think you are concerned with and I see your point.

    To balance the two I have one possible solution. Pull your scores from the leaderboards (ensuring that deleted song's scores or lost song scores from moving boxes are still included in the calculations). If I'm wrong and your leaderboard score somehow also disappears when you delete a song (I don't think this is the case) then I don't know what to tell you.

    Now, this still doesn't address the core issue of my original argument about using unplayed songs to factor in skill ranking. For this I suggest a compromise, rather than scan all unplayed songs on the harddrive and penalize the player for all the songs they haven't gotten a score in yet, perhaps old system could be retained. But, a new system could implement a kind of dynamic incentive to continue posting scores (rather than sitting on a few to keep a high skill ranking). For example, one possible system could decrease the player's current skill by 1 point each day the player didn't post a score but adds a point up to their original skill rating for each song played when they start posting scores again.

    That's just one possible system I thought of off the top of my head. I'm sure with some quality brainstorming, we could think of a better version or other better systems. Anyway, like I said, thanks for the information. Always nice to know Harmonix is listening. :)
  • gaiacatgaiacat Unsigned
    The skill system needs some changes.

    Personally I would like to see a change that includes all songs in your library (meaning unplayed ones too) into your skill rating. That way, it would force people to have true rankings and not just sit on a few gold stars on an instrument they may not deserve such a high skill level in.

    . :p

    Those of us who look at skill are also able to see how many songs others have gold starred. If they have 1000 skill on 7 or so songs, I have no respect for the score. I don't care if they have it though.

    More disheartening is being ranked under these scores because of the random factor - if two people get same score or same skill then it is already predetermined which is person is higher than you in rank and which is lower. My buddy (you know who you are ) has less than me in EVERY category - but since we are both 1000 skill - he will always be ranked higher due to the random factor. I wish it was based on something fair like "Total disc song score" - so having more DLC doesnt give someone a disadvantage.
  • JadiouJadiou Unsigned
    edited November 27
    The skill system needs some minor tweaks.
    gaiacat said:

    I'm a little frustrated with the vocal system to be honest. I'm confused how my stats can be better than a friend's whose skill is 1000 and mine is stuck at 982. Maybe it's just how I suck at math, but I'd like the formula to be easier for math-tards like me to understand. There's a reason I'm an artist.

    Hey Mistress D! All you have to do is gold star every song you have played. If you sort by stars and only have gold stars, you will need to look on the leaderboard of each blank star song to see if you have a score registered but not displaying that you played it. (if you don't have a score it will show you the top scores.)

    I recently played a song and passed you really early in the song- that could be one of your hidden ones.
    We used to be able to use http://rb4scores.com/ to check for hidden songs - but it's not working.
    If you ever played rockband on a different console - the score will not be visible on your console. I hope this helps!!
    Another tip here. If you have the companion app go to "Song List" tab and sort by stars. This data is taken straight from the leaderboards and you will be able to find the non gold starred songs there.
  • gaiacatgaiacat Unsigned
    The skill system needs some changes.
    Jadiou said:

    gaiacat said:

    I'm a little frustrated with the vocal system to be honest. I'm confused how my stats can be better than a friend's whose skill is 1000 and mine is stuck at 982. Maybe it's just how I suck at math, but I'd like the formula to be easier for math-tards like me to understand. There's a reason I'm an artist.

    Hey Mistress D! All you have to do is gold star every song you have played. If you sort by stars and only have gold stars, you will need to look on the leaderboard of each blank star song to see if you have a score registered but not displaying that you played it. (if you don't have a score it will show you the top scores.)

    I recently played a song and passed you really early in the song- that could be one of your hidden ones.
    We used to be able to use http://rb4scores.com/ to check for hidden songs - but it's not working.
    If you ever played rockband on a different console - the score will not be visible on your console. I hope this helps!!
    Another tip here. If you have the companion app go to "Song List" tab and sort by stars. This data is taken straight from the leaderboards and you will be able to find the non gold starred songs there.
    awesome tip
  • The skill system needs some minor tweaks.
    I definitely represent the flaws with the system. My pro drum skill is currently 883. Now that's great, but it no way reflects my actual ability. There are a LOT of songs I can't even finish. I've only finished 50 songs in Challenging or higher tiers. What helps me is I fail out, so I don't register a score. But with the current system, I am ranked highly simply because it appears I don't play a lot of songs and the ones I do play, I do well on. I'm sure there are much better drummers ranked below me simply because they play with no fail on. I agree other factors need to weigh in on the overall calculation (somehow).

    Admittedly I am a casual single player, so the skill is largely irrelevant to me. I was just curious what it was one day and was shocked when I saw the rating.

    Stats from Rock Band 4 in game (Expert pro drums)
    840 total songs (454 in moderate and below, 386 in challenging and higher)
    717 total song plays, but not sure if this was reset when I deleted my save to clear guitar scores
    106 gs
    196 five star (23 of them are Challenging or higher tiers)
    37 four star
    6 three star
  • Meat-PopsicleMeat-Popsicle Road Warrior
    I don't care about the skill system one way or another.

    More lenient? Right now you can get 1000 skill by gold-starring one song in each tier, with an instrument you don't regularly play, and never playing the instrument again. That's insanely unfair to the people who regularly play that instrument.

    Is that really how it works? Wow, I would have thought for sure you that wouldn't get a rating until you played a minimum number of songs (10? 20? more?). Yes I agree that's insanely unfair. So just stop caring, it's obviously deeply flawed. Like the Oscars!

    Hah. If only it were always that simple.

    I normally play bass [skill level=735, which is pretty awesome], but I rotate my play among all of the instruments, so by the time they added the rating, it was way too late for me to have gamed the system that way. And I'd like to think I wouldn't have taken advantage of that loophole anyway.

    (we will never know for sure)

  • thatmarkguythatmarkguy Road Warrior
    edited November 27

    More lenient? Right now you can get 1000 skill by gold-starring one song in each tier, with an instrument you don't regularly play, and never playing the instrument again. That's insanely unfair to the people who regularly play that instrument.

    Is that really how it works? Wow, I would have thought for sure you that wouldn't get a rating until you played a minimum number of songs (10? 20? more?).
    It's one per tier, so 7. It's why one of the two tweaks I suggested above is " institute a minimum scores per tier for leaderboard eligibility". Say, if it was 5-per-tier, it would be a lot harder for people to stick a 1000. That's need 35 GSes, not just 7, and would need 5 at Nightmare, 5 at Impossible...

    I don't mind the OP's later suggestion of an inactivity decay either.

    I still think the original proposal is absurd. I'd not a slam on the proposer, but the *idea* - is untenable. The Rivals expansion has an achievement to get 950 skill. Right now that's achievable by about 1% of the playerbase (playing honestly - assume that we're in agreement that tweaks to reduce abuse to defuse fake accounts with fake skill values are a good idea). That's *already* a incredibly small proportion of the playerbase. The overwhelming majority of players can't get there, and the proposal is that the number of players meriting that achievement is already tenfold too many. I can call that idea absurd just like I might call the current NRA interpretation of the second amendment or the idea that one might put pineapple on pizza absurd.


    If they really want to give the top 0.1%ers a way to differentiate themselves, I'm not opposed to a further system that institutes a finer granularity and considers FCs to be able to give people the means to see the relevant-to-them difference between a 997.3 player and a 997.7 player. But the ability of the superelite to be able to make fine grained distinctions between themselves is NOT a reason to knock the overwhelming majority of players back around 50 pegs. The only people for whom that would make sense are the superelites with absolutely no concern for the common player.
  • wouldn't your skill also change under the current system if you moved to another box with a different library (for example, if right now you had 80 Gold Stars and you moved to a library with only 60 Gold Stars). If not, then why (since you said the count comes from scanning the storage device)?

    Skill is calculated by looking at leaderboard submissions. That's it. Nothing else anywhere plays a role.

    Also, couldn't you also alter your skill now by deleting songs with bad scores?

    As per above, users cannot remove things from the leaderboards, so no, you cannot flub your Skill if you want a play gone.

    Now, this still doesn't address the core issue of my original argument about using unplayed songs to factor in skill ranking. For this I suggest a compromise, rather than scan all unplayed songs on the harddrive and penalize the player for all the songs they haven't gotten a score in yet, perhaps old system could be retained. But, a new system could implement a kind of dynamic incentive to continue posting scores (rather than sitting on a few to keep a high skill ranking). For example, one possible system could decrease the player's current skill by 1 point each day the player didn't post a score but adds a point up to their original skill rating for each song played when they start posting scores again.

    Sure, but virtually everyone doesn't play every day. Rock Band is one of the best examples of a party/weekend game. Even back during RB3, I think Aaron said something along the lines of Rock Band being a great through-line as you play new game releases, have your fill of them, head back to RB, all that. A change like that would 'punish' virtually everyone playing the game and have no effect on the skill-driven people who play every day anyway. We'd add a system just to make most people feel worse or frustrated. Also, if you add too many 'you NEED to play' loops in a game, you don't make it more fun or compelling, you just burn people out.
  • djb5f1djb5f1 Unsigned
    The skill system needs some changes.
    I just wish my gold star experts, 5-star experts, or even 4 star experts would count to my skill rating instead of an earlier 5-Star Hard (lower skill points) that had a higher raw score.

    The tiering is pretty off too. Doing a revisit of that would make for a better skill rating.
  • kaneruleskanerules Rising Star
    I'm curious as to how it's designed now and what I'm missing to bump up to 1000 from 999 on vocals. I have been stuck at 999 for months and months and months.

    I am Top 5 on the vocal leaderboards for overall score, Gold stars and FCs. I currently have over 2300 FCs and only missing about 70-75 that I still have gold stars on, just not FCS. Is it a matter of tightening that gap and FCing some more or is there something else I'm missing?

    Does Brutal mode count towards this skill number? That could be the gap as that never interested me so I haven't played more than a few songs.
  • djb5f1djb5f1 Unsigned
    The skill system needs some changes.
    @kanerules , you are either missing a gold star (hidden song?) or you have a song that you got a higher score on Hard than your gold star score. You may need a FC or close to get a better score it to overwrite that Hard score.

    This has happened to me a few times. Check the App and you may notice a song that has a “(H)” next to the gold stars where everything has has “(X)”.
  • grumblevolcanogrumblevolcano Headliner
    edited November 27
    The skill system needs some minor tweaks.
    @kanerules All that matters is gold stars for maximum skill rating so you have a leaderboard score that isn't gold stars and brutal mode doesn't count at all towards skill. If you use the companion app it should be easy to find the song(s) that aren't gold stars, the possible ideas I have in mind are below:
    - You have a higher 5 star hard score
    - You've (accidentally) hidden a song which has been played but not got gold stars on
    - You were disconnected from the Rock Central servers during obtaining gold stars on a song
    - A gold starred song got caught up in one of the leaderboard wipes from earlier in RB4's lifespan and your leaderboard score is less than gold stars
    - You've lost songs due to moving to a new PS4/XB1 or doing a factory reset and so your less than gold stars song(s) are not in your library anymore but still count towards your skill
  • kaneruleskanerules Rising Star
    Thanks for the ideas guys. The only thing I can think of as being possible from your list is something to do with losing a leaderboard score from a wipe.

    I am more obsessed than most when it comes to tracking my scores so I know I didn't miss or hide any songs and I play nothing but expert so that's not possible either.

    I also stop playing a song if I miss things and don't let it complete if it's not at least gold so I've never registered anything less than gold vocals in RB4.

    I'll have to go through all 2400 songs and see if any are missing leaderboard scores lol. Maybe I'll figure it out by this time next year! :p
  • thatmarkguythatmarkguy Road Warrior
    edited November 27
    If a leaderboard score is MISSING, that's not hurting your skill. Skill is calculated as a function of the scores it has registered for you on leaderboards. If a score is missing from leaderboard, that song simply isn't being used in the formula. It isn't bringing the calculation down, it's not in the calculation at all.

    Your problem is that one (or more) of your scores is a non-GS on the leaderboard. Likely a song that you somehow allowed to complete as 5S, you went back and fixed up with a GS, but your GS didn't upload for whatever reason (server or network outage most likely). So your local view on your console shows your best as a GS, but the servers still think your best is a 5S. (Or the reverse happened; you GSed a song first, but that GS never uploaded; you later played it again and allowed it to complete as non-GS because you din't care because as far as you were concerned it was already a GS, but your non-GS actually wound up being the only one that got to leaderboards).

    Do you have a smartphone? The smartphone app (free, available on android and iOS devices) will show you the leaderboard-logged star results for your account. You could figure out what song the leaderboards have you logged as sub-GS in under 5 minutes in that app.
  • The skill system needs some minor tweaks.
    My point about leaderboard wipes:
    - You have a GS score on the leaderboards
    - That score gets wiped as part of the leaderboard wipe but your local stats still say GS
    - You play that song after the leaderboard wipe and get lower than GS
    - The leaderboards have your lower than GS score but the local stats still have the GS stats
  • thatmarkguythatmarkguy Road Warrior
    edited November 27
    The game is supposed to get a message from the leaderboards when it registers the new score on a wiped song that causes all your local scores for that song to be blanked (and your new result on the current instrument set as your new score for that song even if it's worse than the pre-wipe one). I'm not sure it's even been proven that that always works though. I am pretty sure this behaviour has been witnessed to happen, but whether or not it ALWAYS happens without fail is unclear.
  • The skill system needs some minor tweaks.
    @thatmarkguy The major wipe in early 2016 to merge the leaderboards of tour mode, play a show mode and quickplay did but some of the later wipes didn't.
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