Official End to Controller Manufacturing

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Comments

  • grumblevolcanogrumblevolcano Headliner
    If both the XB1 and PS4 true successors are out by the end of 2021, we're still looking at a console generation of similar length as last gen given Xbox 360 was current gen for 8 years (2005-2013).
  • edited May 4

    Graffin said:


    If at least 1 of the next gen consoles don't have native backwards compatibility, the only options HMX would have are:
    - RB5 with the entitlements mess of the past 2.5+ years repeating itself...
    -

    I don’t think it is a given that the clusterf*** we lived through is an inevitable consequence of upgrading. If there was another upgrade the scenarios we encountered last time could be mitigated, New issues could arise but we shouldn’t expect the same problems to bite us again.
    ...Just saying we aren’t doomed, and I doubt you meant it to sound like we were..,
  • GraffinGraffin Rising Star

    Graffin said:

    Rock Band 5 on the next gen consoles

    This needs to stop. There should not be a new Rock Band on a new console from here on out. Not unless it's a completely revamped game. We're over two and a half years into this game's lifecycle and we still don't have all of our entitlements. You think for one second Harmonix or their remaining fans want to go through that he** again?

    There needs to be a solution for this generation. And we need some sort of dialogue from Harmonix in regards to it.
    I agree in part, especially since it's been what... over 2 years and we're still waiting for legacy/delisted DLC to appear for RB4 (SIEE and SIEA).

    With what i've read so far on future consoles, both MS and Sony acknowledge that backwards compatibility is a much wanted feature, so i'm hoping they listen this time. That would make a *possible* RB5 much more likely, and all they'd have to do is give us an RB4 Export (best case scenario).

    It's early days yet. We'll have to wait and see.
  • kal_el_0724kal_el_0724 Opening Act
    edited May 4
    Graffin said:

    Graffin said:

    Rock Band 5 on the next gen consoles

    This needs to stop. There should not be a new Rock Band on a new console from here on out. Not unless it's a completely revamped game. We're over two and a half years into this game's lifecycle and we still don't have all of our entitlements. You think for one second Harmonix or their remaining fans want to go through that he** again?

    There needs to be a solution for this generation. And we need some sort of dialogue from Harmonix in regards to it.
    I agree in part, especially since it's been what... over 2 years and we're still waiting for legacy/delisted DLC to appear for RB4 (SIEE and SIEA).

    With what i've read so far on future consoles, both MS and Sony acknowledge that backwards compatibility is a much wanted feature, so i'm hoping they listen this time. That would make a *possible* RB5 much more likely, and all they'd have to do is give us an RB4 Export (best case scenario).

    It's early days yet. We'll have to wait and see.
    The main solution to the problem needs to be solved sooner rather than later. Regardless of whether there's a RB5. Harmonix just needs to find a manufacturer who is dedicated for the long haul. At this point, I just wish Harmonix would open up their own little factory and produce their own instruments. Then they would be truly independent. :)
  • grumblevolcanogrumblevolcano Headliner
    Graffin said:

    Graffin said:

    Rock Band 5 on the next gen consoles

    This needs to stop. There should not be a new Rock Band on a new console from here on out. Not unless it's a completely revamped game. We're over two and a half years into this game's lifecycle and we still don't have all of our entitlements. You think for one second Harmonix or their remaining fans want to go through that he** again?

    There needs to be a solution for this generation. And we need some sort of dialogue from Harmonix in regards to it.
    I agree in part, especially since it's been what... over 2 years and we're still waiting for legacy/delisted DLC to appear for RB4 (SIEE and SIEA).

    With what i've read so far on future consoles, both MS and Sony acknowledge that backwards compatibility is a much wanted feature, so i'm hoping they listen this time. That would make a *possible* RB5 much more likely, and all they'd have to do is give us an RB4 Export (best case scenario).

    It's early days yet. We'll have to wait and see.
    It's not that easy, I don't think you can link last gen files to current gen games so you'd still have to go through the entitlements situation for a RB5. Native backwards compatibility would allow RB4 to be supported longer without the need for a RB5 however the current pattern shown by RB3 and Blitz* suggests the digital version of RB4 would be delisted in October 2020.

    *Digital RB3 was removed in October 2015 and Blitz was removed in August 2017, both 5 years after launch.
  • Meat-PopsicleMeat-Popsicle Road Warrior
    That's a good point, it seems most / many songs have to have their rights renewed after 5 years, meaning that the main title can't be sold after that point. So it's not impossible that Something Big will change in October 2020. Be prepared.

    Which means what, exactly? "Make sure you've already purchased RB4 + Rivals", I guess? Make sure you already have plenty of instruments [we're already at that point, it seems]? I'm not sure what will change on that date, exactly. No more patches / no more Season Challenges / no more in-game accessories offered up as prizes? Maybe.
  • GraffinGraffin Rising Star
    edited May 4

    Graffin said:

    Graffin said:

    Rock Band 5 on the next gen consoles

    This needs to stop. There should not be a new Rock Band on a new console from here on out. Not unless it's a completely revamped game. We're over two and a half years into this game's lifecycle and we still don't have all of our entitlements. You think for one second Harmonix or their remaining fans want to go through that he** again?

    There needs to be a solution for this generation. And we need some sort of dialogue from Harmonix in regards to it.
    I agree in part, especially since it's been what... over 2 years and we're still waiting for legacy/delisted DLC to appear for RB4 (SIEE and SIEA).

    With what i've read so far on future consoles, both MS and Sony acknowledge that backwards compatibility is a much wanted feature, so i'm hoping they listen this time. That would make a *possible* RB5 much more likely, and all they'd have to do is give us an RB4 Export (best case scenario).

    It's early days yet. We'll have to wait and see.
    It's not that easy, I don't think you can link last gen files to current gen games so you'd still have to go through the entitlements situation for a RB5. Native backwards compatibility would allow RB4 to be supported longer without the need for a RB5 however the current pattern shown by RB3 and Blitz* suggests the digital version of RB4 would be delisted in October 2020.

    *Digital RB3 was removed in October 2015 and Blitz was removed in August 2017, both 5 years after launch.
    It depends how the consoles handle the backwards compatibility and entitlements.

    I don't know what it's like on the XBOX side of things, but with Sony, all entitlements (PS3/PS4/PS Vita) are all visible on the one account. Furthermore, games like SingStar on the PS3 were able to read PS2 discs. Provided the next gen consoles have a similar file & operating system, or are able to simply read the contents of previous generation data files and/or discs, then it could be as simple as redownloading all existing content and Harmonix providing an RB4 Export to complete it.

    It's too soon to speculate on what the next gen systems will/won't be able to do, so I wouldn't get my hopes up about there being a Rock Band 5, nor do I resign myself to thinking it'll never happen.

    I certainly didn't expect RB4 to get a reboot on the PS4. Yes, the entitlements are still a bit of a mess, but we're getting close to completion on all platforms... just a handful of songs to go for SIEE and SIEA users.

    I don't expect Harmonix to ever make their own instruments. That's one hell of an outlay and expense. They could make a mint by making a wireless mic that works well though, as there currently aren't any licensed ones for either the XBOX or PS4 (the SingStar wireless mics only work with SingStar). Perhaps they could get a 3rd party like Logitech to manufacture them (as i'm pretty sure they did have a wireless mic and did make a Rock Band compatible guitar at one stage).

    But, with a new generation of consoles, I do hope there will be a Rock Band 5 to keep the music genre alive. It's possible that they could still support the current gen at the same time. SingStar attempted to do that (poorly) with releasing songs on the PS3 and PS4 at the same time, so it goes to show it is possible. Anything's possible.
  • ekffazrekffazr Unsigned
    ummm hardware is the issue, there's no Rock Band 5 or 6 or 132 if the peripherals all die before then. Which they inevitably will before any next-gen console comes out.
    so speculating about a RB5 is silly
  • edited May 8
    How will the Rockband brand be able to grow and live without available hardware?.
    That means the game is off limit for all potential newcomers, And existing ones will not be
    able to play if their hardware breaks.

    Maby they should just make the game playable with a regular controller.
    If not in the main game, then in some sort of "blitz mode".


  • braves22braves22 Opening Act
    Wickale said:

    How will the Rockband brand be able to grow and live without available hardware?.
    That means the game is off limit for all potential newcomers, And existing ones will not be
    able to play if their hardware breaks.

    Maby they should just make the game playable with a regular controller.
    If not in the main game, then in some sort of "blitz mode".


    I mention this and ask about it almost every single day to no avail...


    Being someone who has been around from the beginning, I try to get new players involved all the time whether it be friends or family members, etc etc...

    BUT the problem in lies in that I just can't do it anymore because I can mention the game and where you may be able to pick up a copy or digital version or DLC, but its pretty darn difficult to play a freakin game without instruments..

    Now sure you may be able to pick up your garden variety mic, but guitars are scarce, and drums are basically non existent...

    Both are even tougher if you don't want to spend an entire paycheck on them (because most are marked up over 500%) --- In fact, I think when I was searching for bundles recently, people were selling them for $600-700... Excuse me?!


    I love Rock Band...and I love that it has lasted this long and I love the community we have, but with no instrument availability, this thing is going to sputter and die out sooner than later as they can't add new players with the shortage, and they will start to lose us long timers when our instruments give out and we have no replacements...

    DLC and module additions don't make any difference to a product that I can't play if I don't have working gear.


    As someone else mentioned before, at least give us some inclination that you have read our responses are are taking them to the decision makers and can give us an answer one way or another.


    Thats all we are really asking for --- will there or won't there be another instrument partnership?
  • Meat-PopsicleMeat-Popsicle Road Warrior
    Back when Rock Band was dead, I was looking into buying one (or several) third-party Rock Band guitar controllers. There seemed to be several factories in China making them, but the only way to order from them was to buy a case at a time [24? 100? I don't remember]. There's no way I could find enough people to split the order with me, especially if I was unable to test it out ahead of time + confirm they were built well. But I thought about it anyway ... because there was literally no way to buy a new guitar controller at that point, not for anything approaching "original retail price". The demand was still there ... guitars break, sooner or later, and people want to keep playing.

    Were they officially authorized to do make these controllers? Surely not. And therefore I would never have been able to buy one from a store in the US, not ever. No matter how big demand grew.

    If there is ever a new Rock Band release [on the next generation of consoles], I have to think that SOMEONE would be willing to make the new instruments, to satisfy an anticipated surge in demand. Hey, if they don't find someone, there's no new game, so even if HMX had to guarantee some minimum level of sales, it might be worth it. But before that point? Maybe all of the companies that could plausibly take on a contract like that right now are too wary to do so after seeing what happened with the last two contracts, and won't even consider it.

    Eventually (soon?)(already?) demand will grow to the point that new guitars will fetch way more than it costs to manufacture them. BUT as soon as anyone made a bunch of new controllers, the market would get flooded and they wouldn't be able to sell them for anywhere near the current price. It's a conundrum. There's no profit in making "a few hundred" instruments. And "thousands and thousands" of guitars would flood the market.
  • TheStuddzTheStuddz Lil Rascal
    edited May 8
    It is a very real possibility that there won't be another partnership. Not in this console generation, anyways. Manufacturers look at Mad Catz and PDP and simply decide that they don't want to suffer the same fate. Rock Band, despite it being my favorite game of all-time, is a big risk targeted to a niche audience.

    This is a huge part of the reason that I hope against hope that a Blitz-type mode comes into play on current-gen consoles. Even Xbox 360 controllers are still readily available, but need to find instruments for RB4, a current-gen game only released 2.5 years ago? Good luck.

    A standard-controller gameplay mode would allow us to keep using the songs that we've bought (for some of us, thousands of dollars' worth) long after our instruments are gone.
  • braves22braves22 Opening Act
    My problem with whats being said is this:

    How can they clearly say they are continuing to FULLY support a game when they aren't recognizing that regardless of throwing out patches and features and DLC, they aren't also gauging how many people are dropping out without being replaced by new folks because of instrument availability?
  • ekffazrekffazr Unsigned
    braves22 said:

    My problem with whats being said is this:

    How can they clearly say they are continuing to FULLY support a game when they aren't recognizing that regardless of throwing out patches and features and DLC, they aren't also gauging how many people are dropping out without being replaced by new folks because of instrument availability?

    this * 1,000,000
  • Meat-PopsicleMeat-Popsicle Road Warrior
    If it made business sense, they would do it. It's not like "they forgot" that instruments are important.
    I don't want to try and convince them that it would be stupid to go on with DLC if they can't make new instruments. Because their only real option to the current situation isn't to "spend [$very large amount] subsidizing a company to make more instruments". It's to "stop offering DLC, stop Rival challenges, stop patches, stop everything". Disappointing? Sure! But that's reality.
  • djb5f1djb5f1 Unsigned
    edited May 8
    I am fairly optimistic there will be a Rock Band 5 for next gen with new peripherals so current peripherals will really just have to last through current gen.
  • LordFlatusLordFlatus Rising Star
    TheStuddz said:

    It is a very real possibility that there won't be another partnership. Not in this console generation, anyways. Manufacturers look at Mad Catz and PDP and simply decide that they don't want to suffer the same fate.

    What fate did PDP suffer? They did limited realistic runs of instruments and sold out of all of them. It seems like most sold for $49 or $59 instead of the completely reasonable MSRP of $79, but was it ever reported anywhere that PDP took a loss?

    MadCatz is another story as that company was run by a bunch non-businessmen. MC was over-leveraged and ready to fold before the Rock Band 4 partnership, and MC took on more debt and made extremely stupid business plans based on completely unrealistic sales numbers in a prayer-move that they somehow deluded themselves into thinking would salvage the company. I don't for one second think that HMX misled them, I think MC just made stupid projections based on wishful thinking. Boom, Rock Band 4 comes out and HMX is happy but MC closes (for a while).


    A new company could come in for a limited run of controllers, although at this point the projected sales volume would have to be a lot smaller and that would make MSRP higher per unit.
  • Meat-PopsicleMeat-Popsicle Road Warrior
    edited May 8

    A new company could come in for a limited run of controllers, although at this point the projected sales volume would have to be a lot smaller and that would make MSRP higher per unit.

    Yes! Because at some point, people will be thrilled to pay that higher price for a new unit. Especially if it is well-built / sturdy. Maybe it even has a tone switch?
  • TheStuddzTheStuddz Lil Rascal
    edited May 8

    TheStuddz said:

    It is a very real possibility that there won't be another partnership. Not in this console generation, anyways. Manufacturers look at Mad Catz and PDP and simply decide that they don't want to suffer the same fate.

    What fate did PDP suffer? They did limited realistic runs of instruments and sold out of all of them. It seems like most sold for $49 or $59 instead of the completely reasonable MSRP of $79, but was it ever reported anywhere that PDP took a loss?
    Yeah, I'm talking out of my butt (as per usual). You can probably extrapolate some stuff from the fact that they were so quick to get out of the Rock Band business, but maybe a limited run was all it was ever meant to be. You'd think that if it had worked out well for them, they'd want to keep the partnership going in some form or other.
  • LordFlatusLordFlatus Rising Star
    They did get pressured into a second run of Wired Legacy Adapters, but the first run sold out on pre-order so the only agonizing over that decision was guessing how many to make. "Did we freaking nail the projection spot-on the first time and now there's only a very vocal market for 50 more of these things, or will 1500 sell?"

    The guitars dropped to $49/$59 pretty quickly, so I'm sure that was disappointing and is what keeps them from taking on the risk of getting stuck with a bunch of inventory from another run. It seems like maybe if they or someone else had a business plan going forward of direct sales only (and therefore no wholesale discount to Amazon) that $50 a piece could work. But it also depends a lot on how many guitars you have to make in a run to make that price viable, and how long you can realistically estimate you'll be stuck holding onto that inventory.

    It's not just licensing that's hard, smart business planning is too.
  • braves22braves22 Opening Act
    Somebody posted something trying to help out on Reddit...

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Rockband/comments/8i7ibj/new_to_rock_band_4_andor_looking_for_instruments/


    Just wish HMX would get involved and give us some update as to where things stand on this matter.


  • ekffazrekffazr Unsigned
    yep, someone just asked me last night where to get it so they could play, they thought it was pretty cool.
    had to tell them they can't buy it anywhere for a working mans price

  • djb5f1djb5f1 Unsigned
    edited May 9
    In the U.S., Amazon has offered guitars for months now at 49.99. PS4 and Xbox and various colors.

    Must be a lot of people outside the U.S. looking for them because if you are stateside, they have been easily obtainable. Just bought another one today as a backup as you all got me scared, lol.

    And they were on sale for 29.99 around Christmas time, I should have stocked up then.
  • braves22braves22 Opening Act
    ekffazr said:

    yep, someone just asked me last night where to get it so they could play, they thought it was pretty cool.
    had to tell them they can't buy it anywhere for a working mans price

    Yeah, its still incredibly discouraging to know that I can't get any new folks to buy the game and that if and when my instruments crap out, I am done-zo as well...and for someone who has spent well into the thousands (should that be concerning), I just don't want the journey to end...

    Not only do I still take my gear on the road to Rock Band parties, but my family and I finally found something more interesting to do at holidays than play f-ing board games (sorry for those that are really into that).
  • braves22 said:


    Just wish HMX would get involved and give us some update as to where things stand on this matter.

    They probably are already, or at least it's floating around in board meetings with reasonably impending senses of urgency. With those who can use generic controllers (vocalists, given the high rate of cross compatibility of USB mics with the game) as the minority, HMX's survival will depend highly upon finding a new controller manufacturer.

    Or for strings they could also figure out how to get a real adapter to read inputs from IRL string plucking a la Rocksmith, but you didn't just read that from me.

  • braves22braves22 Opening Act



    HMX's survival will depend highly upon finding a new controller manufacturer.

    This I would also believe is a big key, but we are now years plural into the RB4 brand and their latest hardware manufacturer dropped off awhile back and nothing...

    And yet here we are with the peddling of Rivals like its something people can still jump on if they want to ---- but the news flash is they can't unless they were a previous gen player that miraculously stowed away their gear in storage or get lucky and come across some crazy who is giving away RB garb not knowing what they have on their hands...because the people that do...ooh boy, they are trying to cash in on that.


    Again, it just saddens me that I can't bring a new generation into the RB fold because of lack of inventory.


    Until we get something concrete, I will play my instruments and to some extent cringe at the thought one day could be my last strum or drum beat.
  • djb5f1djb5f1 Unsigned
    braves22 said:



    HMX's survival will depend highly upon finding a new controller manufacturer.

    This I would also believe is a big key, but we are now years plural into the RB4 brand and their latest hardware manufacturer dropped off awhile back and nothing...

    And yet here we are with the peddling of Rivals like its something people can still jump on if they want to ---- but the news flash is they can't unless they were a previous gen player that miraculously stowed away their gear in storage or get lucky and come across some crazy who is giving away RB garb not knowing what they have on their hands...because the people that do...ooh boy, they are trying to cash in on that.


    Again, it just saddens me that I can't bring a new generation into the RB fold because of lack of inventory.


    Until we get something concrete, I will play my instruments and to some extent cringe at the thought one day could be my last strum or drum beat.
    Where do you live? Amazon has had a healthy supply of guitars in the U.S. for quite some time.
  • ekffazrekffazr Unsigned
    djb5f1 said:

    braves22 said:



    HMX's survival will depend highly upon finding a new controller manufacturer.

    This I would also believe is a big key, but we are now years plural into the RB4 brand and their latest hardware manufacturer dropped off awhile back and nothing...

    And yet here we are with the peddling of Rivals like its something people can still jump on if they want to ---- but the news flash is they can't unless they were a previous gen player that miraculously stowed away their gear in storage or get lucky and come across some crazy who is giving away RB garb not knowing what they have on their hands...because the people that do...ooh boy, they are trying to cash in on that.


    Again, it just saddens me that I can't bring a new generation into the RB fold because of lack of inventory.


    Until we get something concrete, I will play my instruments and to some extent cringe at the thought one day could be my last strum or drum beat.
    Where do you live? Amazon has had a healthy supply of guitars in the U.S. for quite some time.
    a healthy supply of guitars is not going to bring in new users......there be no drums
  • braves22braves22 Opening Act
    ekffazr said:

    djb5f1 said:

    braves22 said:



    HMX's survival will depend highly upon finding a new controller manufacturer.

    This I would also believe is a big key, but we are now years plural into the RB4 brand and their latest hardware manufacturer dropped off awhile back and nothing...

    And yet here we are with the peddling of Rivals like its something people can still jump on if they want to ---- but the news flash is they can't unless they were a previous gen player that miraculously stowed away their gear in storage or get lucky and come across some crazy who is giving away RB garb not knowing what they have on their hands...because the people that do...ooh boy, they are trying to cash in on that.


    Again, it just saddens me that I can't bring a new generation into the RB fold because of lack of inventory.


    Until we get something concrete, I will play my instruments and to some extent cringe at the thought one day could be my last strum or drum beat.
    Where do you live? Amazon has had a healthy supply of guitars in the U.S. for quite some time.
    a healthy supply of guitars is not going to bring in new users......there be no drums

    Exactly...

    What am I saying to my friends who are already shelling out money for a new setup but wanted an entire band kit?

    Tough ****, better luck next time?!
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